Extinction Rebellion

[chilango]

For the record, I'm not advocating the use of violence right here, right now. "You can't blow up a social relationship" as we used to say. I just think it's foolish to insist upon absolute non-violence as a principle.

 

[Idaho]

No. I'm saying that if its critical - both in terms of severity and urgency - then whatever wins most quickly and completely is the best approach. I don't know whether that's with violence or not. But if these are the ground upon which we are rebelling (not protesting, rebelling) then you cannot morally or practically or logically preemptively rule out the use of violence on our part.

I understand what you are saying. My feeling on it is that in this inception phase, it's important for the movement to spread across political and social groups. For this it needs to play nice. Perhaps in a few years there will be more scope for drama.

 

[Pickman's model]

I understand what you are saying. My feeling on it is that in this inception phase, it's important for the movement to spread across political and social groups. For this it needs to play nice. Perhaps in a few years there will be more scope for drama.

perhaps in a few years time there will be rather more drama than you're comfortable with

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Oh, Gramsci, thank you for taking the time to take the photos and upload them here, am hugely appreciating your efforts.

 

[smokedout]

Seems a bit divorced from reality. Any popular protest movement must be avowedly non violent. Any deviation from that will see the group expressly outlawed and a large escalation in government rhetoric, organised violence and suppression.

You're making the same mistake as Hallam here when he claims that non violence is the most effective way to bring about regime change. Hallam bases this theory on a study which showed that non paramilitary or guerilla mass movements were more effective. However these 'peaceful' movements were not passive in the way XR strives to be, they involved penty of confrontation, rioting and fighting back, they just didn't involve organised armed struggle to any large extent. To equate something like the 2011 Egyptian revolution with the kind of love the police lie down and get arrested approach of XR is specious. You don't have to take up arms to have a spiky street presence with the ability to defend itself and slow down or hamper the actions of the state in stopping it - in fact it's exactly what you need if you are going to genuinely disrupt capital and move beyond the kind of spectacle that XR are very good at, but which is clearly not really troubling the state.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Taking position all protest should be non violent is like complaining strikes cause disruption to the public. Either the aim is to make clear you are against x,y,z, in which case fine have a cake sale and a petition, or its to force change

 

[savoloysam]

And Johnson comes out with
“uncooperative crusties in hemp smelling bivouacs”.

Truly magnificent. He just can't help himself. This type of language will lose him more voters than it wins.

 

[8ball]

For the record, I'm not advocating the use of violence right here, right now. "You can't blow up a social relationship" as we used to say. I just think it's foolish to insist upon absolute non-violence as a principle.

The non-violence thing is basically PR. They are trying to get themselves implanted as "the good guys" or at least "some harmless, slightly flakey guys making an actual point" in most people's minds before the general media makes its mind up and paints them as terrorists.

 

[8ball]

Truly magnificent. He just can't help himself. This type of language will lose him more voters than he wins.

He thinks he can carry on using the same tricks that worked when he was writing for that shitrag, only the audience has broadened somewhat.

 

[savoloysam]

He thinks he can carry on using the same tricks that worked when he was writing for that shitrag, only the audience has broadened somewhat.

The "Bristish Trump" moniker really sticks with this guy. You're not supposed to run with it, Boris

 

[8ball]

The "Bristish Trump" moniker really sticks with this guy. You're not supposed to run with it, Boris

To be fair, he's a lot more lyrical with his insults than Trump could ever manage.

It's just that he's objectively wrong - these aren't a mass of Swampies. There are a huge number of politically noobish teenagers, and middle-class older folk concerned about younger generations.

 

[savoloysam]

To be fair, he's a lot more lyrical with his insults than Trump could ever manage.

It's just that he's objectively wrong - these aren't a mass of Swampies. There are a huge number of politically noobish teenagers, and middle-class older folk concerned about younger generations.

And as pointed out earlier a lot of well off retirees (Not sure of my spelling there or if that's even a word) most of whom are guaranteed voters. Which is why I think his comment is magnificent.

 

[Pickman's model]

very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The non-violence thing is basically PR. They are trying to get themselves implanted as "the good guys" or at least "some harmless, slightly flakey guys making an actual point" in most people's minds before the general media makes its mind up and paints them as terrorists.

Makes total sense as well. If they took the 'nuanced' approach of saying 'under present conditions we're opposed to violence but we cannot rule it out under possible alternative circumstances without a full cost-benefit analysis,' the media would rip them to shreds.

 

[8ball]

very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.

More than a little uneasy, innit.

 

[Idaho]

very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.

That seems fair enough tbh. Many of those activists come with their own agendas, micro feuds, barely-concealed-desire-for-control, sense of superiority, etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

That seems fair enough tbh. Many of those activists come with their own agendas, micro feuds, barely-concealed-desire-for-control, sense of superiority, etc.

you'd seem to occupy a high stratum of the smugosphere, but perhaps you could outline the lots of reasons you mentioned above.

 

[TopCat]

You're saying that if it's critical then violence is the best approach. I would say that while there are always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action, at this stage I think XR are doing the right thing in keeping it avowedly non violent for lots of reasons.

You are at least prepared to discuss it now.

 

[Idaho]

You are at least prepared to discuss it now.

Yeah I will discuss in a limited way. No point going into elaborate detail.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah I will discuss in a limited way. No point going into elaborate detail.

nothing you can get pinned down on obvs, like the lots of reasons you mention.

 

[Idaho]

nothing you can get pinned down on obvs, like the lots of reasons you mention.

I generally keep taking to you to a minimum. You are an ever-presence on urban. If you posted as much as most others then responding to you would be fine. But it's a bit like going to your local and always somehow being on the table next to the same person with them butting into every conversation.

 

[smokedout]

very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.

This linked from there is worth reading as well: Bloodless Lies

 

[Pickman's model]

I generally keep taking to you to a minimum. You are an ever-presence on urban. If you posted as much as most others then responding to you would be fine. But it's a bit like going to your local and always somehow being on the table next to the same person with them butting into every conversation.

if only you'd outline the lots of reasons you mentioned then this little exchange would be over. as it is i am forced to conclude you put in 'lots of reasons' without thinking you'd ever have to list them, that these reasons exist only in your imagination.

no one *made* you start this exchange (your post 2111) and it's disappointingly typical but not surprising that you now fail to substantiate your claims.

 

[Idaho]

if only you'd outline the lots of reasons you mentioned then this little exchange would be over. as it is i am forced to conclude you put in 'lots of reasons' without thinking you'd ever have to list them, that these reasons exist only in your imagination.

no one *made* you start this exchange (your post 2111) and it's disappointingly typical but not surprising that you now fail to substantiate your claims.

This exchange would be over?! Really? I think me listing lots of reasons would only be the start of it. 8ball highlighted a number of them above.

You have this ludicrous and pompous belief that discussion on here is something meaningful and important and not just an entertaining distraction.

 

[Pickman's model]

You have this ludicrous and pompous belief that discussion on here is something meaningful and important and not just an entertaining distraction.

often what is discussed here is meaningful and important. you belittle the community which exists here if you think that threads started by people who've just lost loved ones or have been diagnosed with serious illnesses are just an entertaining distraction. it's not only threads like those, which can make a real difference to posters' lives, but also threads like these. there's a certain rigour here when political matters are discussed. if you're going to make claims and then try to weasel out of them perhaps you'd be better off not posting at all. this isn't some thread in general in which no one's *that* fussed, this is about an important thing which is happening at the moment. if you think it's only an entertaining distration perhaps some other boards might be more to your liking.

 

[Idaho]

often what is discussed here is meaningful and important. you belittle the community which exists here if you think that threads started by people who've just lost loved ones or have been diagnosed with serious illnesses are just an entertaining distraction. it's not only threads like those, which can make a real difference to posters' lives, but also threads like these. there's a certain rigour here when political matters are discussed. if you're going to make claims and then try to weasel out of them perhaps you'd be better off not posting at all. this isn't some thread in general in which no one's *that* fussed, this is about an important thing which is happening at the moment. if you think it's only an entertaining distration perhaps some other boards might be more to your liking.

If you think all the posts are deeply significant, and you are happy to post so much, then it naturally follows that you rate your own content very highly.

you belittle the community which exists here

I think this is a very weak play to the gallery

 

[Pickman's model]

If you think all the posts are deeply significant, and you are happy to post so much, then it naturally follows that you rate your own content very highly.

no it doesn't, in great part because i never said 'all the posts are deeply significant': but when i'm asked questions about my posts i do answer them.

I think this is a very weak play to the gallery

if you honestly think that everything here is an entertaining distraction then you really ought to take a long look at yourself.

 

[redcogs]

If you think all the posts are deeply significant, and you are happy to post so much, then it naturally follows that you rate your own content very highly.


I think this is a very weak play to the gallery

Just for the record, whilst not always agreeing with Pickmans model, i find his content stimulating and treat it respectfully because it seems genuine and honest and experience based. Its also often humourful, always a bonus. As for whether the forums general content has meaning over and above being an "entertaining distraction", i believe it has. I've learned much from my intermittent engagement, and as an area where political strategy and tactics can be debated in a fruitful and comradely way i reckon its without parallel on the Left.

So, if you regard it as trivial maybe elsewhere IS the place to go?.

 

[8ball]

...as an area where political strategy and tactics can be debated in a fruitful and comradely way i reckon its without parallel on the Left.

The Left is in a pretty dire state tbf.

 

[Idaho]

as an area where political strategy and tactics can be debated in a fruitful and comradely way i reckon its without parallel on the Left.

Is XR on the left though?