Extinction Rebellion

[Pickman's model]

Is XR on the left though?

he's talking about *urban* there not about xr

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Section 14 now imposed: everyone is supposed to go to Trafalgar Square, which of course gives up the advantage of multiple sites.



I got the impression that the cops wanted to either clear Whitehall or do quite a lot of arrests there this afternoon - big lines marching in as I wandered out, and cops blocking people leaving southbound if they thought they were protestors. Whitehall is quite an easy street to kettle people in.

eta: and lo and behold, just now I see there is a kettle on Whitehall

 

[8ball]

Section 14 now imposed: everyone is supposed to go to Trafalgar Square, which of course gives up the advantage of multiple sites.



I got the impression that the cops wanted to either clear Whitehall or do quite a lot of arrests there this afternoon - big lines marching in as I wandered out, and cops blocking people leaving southbound if they thought they were protestors. Whitehall is quite an easy street to kettle people in.

I like the "in order to prevent significant disruption to the life of the community" bit.
How far above sea level is Central London (moreover, how high can flood tides get before those barriers stop working)?

 

[Pickman's model]

I like the "in order to prevent significant disruption to the life of the community" bit.
How far above sea level is Central London?

3.9-5m

 

[8ball]

3.9-5m

I don't know enough about tides etc. to do anything meaningful with that.

 

[redcogs]

Is XR on the left though?

XR isn't a fixed and static organisation is my impression. It might develop in a left direction as it experiences the tribulations of the state's response towards its activities. OK, it might not, and certainly there is a dubiousness about eco activist core ideas. But we gotta be optimistic - XR can offer great opportunities for anti cap initiatives?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

 

[redcogs]

The Left is in a pretty dire state tbf.

Agreed 8ball. i didnae 'like' your post cos its a source of considerable regret that our side is in such disarray..

 

[Brainaddict]

Went round some of the sites this afternoon. I can't help cringing at the clowning-hulahoop-hippie axis being so strong, but the level of organisation and commitment is impressive. It's like running six Occupy camps at once (and with the slight political void that Occupy had).

A friend of a friend currently locked on at a junction told me the police tried to hand her a Section 14 notice earlier, but she was being a clown at the time, 'and clowns don't take Section 14s'

I've been waiting for the wheels to come off XR but it's still growing. I wish it had some better politics behind it but given the low level of left wing organising in the UK for the last 30 years perhaps it isn't surprising that it doesn't. I sort of feel the urge to be involved despite the dodgy politics, just because it's fun to be part of a buzzing mass mobilisation, and perhaps it can be turned in better directions. But the fact is I still struggle to see it as the right way to expend so much energy. What does it lead to? Roger Hallam getting a seat round the table with some politicians to help negotiate for a few things? And when they turn out to be only minor or cosmetic changes, can this level of energy be maintained to push things further?

Or perhaps you could see such large mobilisations as trying to alter the social consensus somewhat. It may be useful for doing that, but that's when the hula-hooping glitter fairies start to seem problematic - it's back in the subcultural territory that UK activism has been trapped in for decades.

*sigh*

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It felt like it was getting hairy this afternoon, which is something I didn't feel at the last one. Even when I got caught in between police lines at Oxford Circus I was able to just sit down and have a coffee and a fag and then wander off. Today my kettle-sense was definitely tingling.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I've been waiting for the wheels to come off XR but it's still growing. I wish it had some better politics behind it but given the low level of left wing organising in the UK for the last 30 years perhaps it isn't surprising that it doesn't. I sort of feel the urge to be involved despite the dodgy politics, just because it's fun to be part of a buzzing mass mobilisation, and perhaps it can be turned in better directions. But the fact is I still struggle to see it as the right way to expend so much energy. What does it lead to? Roger Hallam getting a seat round the table with some politicians to help negotiate for a few things? And when they turn out to be only minor or cosmetic changes, can this level of energy be maintained to push things further?

XR believe that the end of life on Earth as we know it is imminent. Therefore getting better conditions for X,Y or Z is immaterial. They are not suggesting sitting around with politicians, they are demanding a people's assembly to solve the issue. Anything less will not do.

So yeah, so long as the science continues to deliver the information that fuels the belief, XR will continue and will only grow as more and more people come to share the belief.

 

[TopCat]

So yeah, so long as the science continues to deliver the information that fuels the belief, XR will continue and will only grow as more and more people come to share the belief.

Mm. Not sure about that.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Mm. Not sure about that.

Really?

When every new day brings news of the climate breaking down affecting more and more people. I reckon most of us know the climate is fucked and we each need to do something radical to stop very serious consequences, but we each have a tipping point as to what it will take us to see/know/believe before we take that action. But once you take that leap I can't see how you can ever go back.

 

[Pickman's model]

Really?

When every new day brings news of the climate breaking down affecting more and more people. I reckon most of us know the climate is fucked and we each need to do something radical to stop very serious consequences, but we each have a tipping point as to what it will take us to see/know/believe before we take that action. But once you take that leap I can't see how you can ever go back.

I think TopCat may be taking issue with your sunny predictions for xr's future rather than your bit about climate breakdown

 

[Pickman's model]

Went round some of the sites this afternoon. I can't help cringing at the clowning-hulahoop-hippie axis being so strong, but the level of organisation and commitment is impressive. It's like running six Occupy camps at once (and with the slight political void that Occupy had).

A friend of a friend currently locked on at a junction told me the police tried to hand her a Section 14 notice earlier, but she was being a clown at the time, 'and clowns don't take Section 14s'

I've been waiting for the wheels to come off XR but it's still growing. I wish it had some better politics behind it but given the low level of left wing organising in the UK for the last 30 years perhaps it isn't surprising that it doesn't. I sort of feel the urge to be involved despite the dodgy politics, just because it's fun to be part of a buzzing mass mobilisation, and perhaps it can be turned in better directions. But the fact is I still struggle to see it as the right way to expend so much energy. What does it lead to? Roger Hallam getting a seat round the table with some politicians to help negotiate for a few things? And when they turn out to be only minor or cosmetic changes, can this level of energy be maintained to push things further?

Or perhaps you could see such large mobilisations as trying to alter the social consensus somewhat. It may be useful for doing that, but that's when the hula-hooping glitter fairies start to seem problematic - it's back in the subcultural territory that UK activism has been trapped in for decades.

*sigh*

Occupy didn't have a political void, it was crammed with 'loons

 

[8ball]

Occupy didn't have a political void, it was crammed with 'loons

I can see where Brainaddict is coming from. I had a row with a fervent Occupier at the time over his decision to cross a picket line.

 

[campanula]

I always like to see people on the street - fear of the unruly mob is generally something most governments strive to avoid (more of us than them) and I like the idea of collective action and responsibility. However, that's about as far as it goes, for me. I have no money or appetite to chop up perfectly good sheets to make banners, am even less inclined to dress up in facepaint...but mostly, it is the jarring hypocrisy from people who are all ever so keen on jaunting about the world in planes, probably have never had to rely on public transport, who no doubt possess a vast collection of gadgetry, shop often for disposable fashion, indulge in food fads of every type. The sort who would be horrified if all washing machines and dishwashers were no longer produced (we could have a laundry on every street corner - I still recall these with some joy), who all possess smart phones, several PCs, tablets, gaming devices...yet have never had to actually struggle for much in their lives.
I know what is needed...and it is an unpalatable truth for the vast majority of all of us in the global north...and what's more, I have not the tiniest objection to a forceful redistribution, of property, empty houses or those used as investment opportunities, prohibiting all second home ownership in fact, private property across the board and hitting at the heart of consumer capitalism with purposeful boycotts, refusal to buy endless amounts of stuff and an absolute negation of the idea of individual rights being somehow far more important than collective and community rights. I have a secure tenancy, clean water and do not go to bed hungry...
There is enough space and resources on earth to carry everyone...the fundamental problems which we urgently need to solve are global redistribution...of technology, skills, wealth, land, water

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I think TopCat may be taking issue with your sunny predictions for xr's future rather than your bit about climate breakdown

Right.

XR isn't really my cup of tea, it's different to anything I have been involved with before. I like my protests with a few cans of lager and the chance to have a punch up with the police, XR doesn't offer that. However the few times I have run in to XR stuff I have been shocked at how well received it is, by people who are not anarcho-crusties, not sleeping in hempy-bivouacs. They are just normal people, a bit of bias to white-middle class, but run-ins I have had with them have been in my area, which is a white-middle class area, so it will always be leaning that way.

Genteel Guildford on a Friday afternoon a couple of weeks ago managed this:





With a high street shop:




Over to Godalming:

The Town Council provided this space:




At the town's summer festival, Staycation Live, XR were given half of the second stage area and they were mobbed on both days:









This is a small town in an area whose inhabitants will be some of the last to feel the worst effects of climate change. This kind of shit is going on all over the country. As people get the message that something must be done, where else is there other than XR for them to turn to?

 

[8ball]

I always like to see people on the street - fear of the unruly mob is generally something most governments strive to avoid (more of us than them) and I like the idea of collective action and responsibility. However, that's about as far as it goes, for me. I have no money or appetite to chop up perfectly good sheets to make banners, am even less inclined to dress up in facepaint...but mostly, it is the jarring hypocrisy from people who are all ever so keen on jaunting about the world in planes, probably have never had to rely on public transport, who no doubt possess a vast collection of gadgetry, shop often for disposable fashion, indulge in food fads of every type. The sort who would be horrified if all washing machines and dishwashers were no longer produced (we could have a laundry on every street corner - I still recall these with some joy), who all possess smart phones, several PCs, tablets, gaming devices...yet have never had to actually struggle for much in their lives.
I know what is needed...and it is an unpalatable truth for the vast majority of all of us in the global north...and what's more, I have not the tiniest objection to a forceful redistribution, of property, empty houses or those used as investment opportunities, prohibiting all second home ownership in fact, private property across the board and hitting at the heart of consumer capitalism with purposeful boycotts, refusal to buy endless amounts of stuff and an absolute negation of the idea of individual rights being somehow far more important than collective and community rights. I have a secure tenancy, clean water and do not go to bed hungry...
There is enough space and resources on earth to carry everyone...the fundamental problems which we urgently need to solve are global redistribution...of technology, skills, wealth, land, water

You missed out collectivising the farms and exterminating the intelligentsia.

 

[Pickman's model]

You missed out collectivising the farms and exterminating the intelligentsia.

Those go without saying

 

[8ball]

Those go without saying

I predict a sudden and vertiginous drop in pedantry levels from you as soon as they get started on the latter.

 

[Pickman's model]

I predict a sudden and vertiginous drop in pedantry levels from you as soon as they get started on the latter.

By no means, I am firmly of the view that in the eyes of future inquisitors my posts here will be held to exclude me from the ranks of the intelligentsia

Look, for example, at my recorded reading on the various reading challenge threads which consists almost without exception of detective stories or fantasy or horror.

 

[redcogs]

i cant accept this Pickmans model. im a lot thicker than you, i watch telly, a favourite passtime being netflix bingeing!

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

By no means, I am firmly of the view that in the eyes of future inquisitors my posts here will be held to exclude me from the ranks of the intelligentsia

Look, for example, at my recorded reading on the various reading challenge threads which consists almost without exception of detective stories or fantasy or horror.

So you don’t deny that you’ve read books then

 

[Pickman's model]

i cant accept this Pickmans model. im a lot thicker than you, i watch telly, a favourite passtime being netflix bingeing!

Yeh I've been enjoying bingeing on daredevil and the punisher

 

[Red Sky]

very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.

That Cory Morningstar stuff is pretty tin foil hat.

I thought the point of Hallam's talk here was basically how to stop a social movement being dragged down by "The Left" a problem I'm sure many on here have grappled with.

 

[Gramsci]

More update from my evening in central London.

Whitehall was busy with XR closed to traffic lots of cops around Westminster bridge and Lambeth bridge.

I cycled through Parliament square. Kurdish demo and the Brexit for and against demos.

At beginning of Millbank by Houses of Parliament stand off between police and protestors sitting in the road.

The protestors have lost the roundabout but were still in Marsham street.

The police were letting cyclists leave parliament square but not enter.

I'm impressed by XR protestors who have made the effort to come to London from far away.

 

[Gramsci]

After going through Parliament square I went to see if the Welsh lot were still in Marsham street outside Priti Patel HQ.

Yes they were ( at 6pm).

Ended up having a chat with one of the XRs giving out leaflets. XR have people giving out leaflets and trying to engage with passers by. A thankless task I know from experience.

So I felt sorry for him and we had nice long chat. Plus Im originally from South West so curious. Wales and South West have combined for London protests.

He asked me about tactics of closing roads. I said no problems with that. He said this time lot of negative stuff on that.

Showed him this site and he was pleased it was getting coverage here and issues are being debated here.

I feel XR protestors are feeling a lot of right wing dislike this time around. He was telling me about Daily Mail coverage. Boris is making it respectable imo with his comments.

So XR activists are feeling more of a backlash this time.
We then got onto politics. I said most people agree about the climate change issue.

I wasn't keen on the "beyond politics" banners. We then got onto why leftish people but not Tories accepted climate change issue. He felt broad based movement should be able to appeal to Tories. But he also saw they didn't support XR view on climate emergency.

I did say XR should perhaps move from "beyond politics" slogan to saying socialist Green new deal was something they support. And give up on trying to build on a kind of getting ordinary people of all political persuasions on board.

See banner from Wales/ south west section of XR saying system change below.

So I think on the ground XR is basically socialist.

He didn't disagree.

XR position has been that climate emergency goes beyond left right divide. So new kind of politics with people's assembly is required.

But for example its Labour party that have adopted Green new deal. Not the Tories.

Nice guy. He was from Gloucester. Wasn't there yesterday but came today to help out.

One thing XR has done is to get ordinary people like this who are socially concerned active in a movement.

XR in practice is quite open organisation. Doesn't seem to browbeat followers to much to follow a party line.

Anyway that's my impression after a chat.

Photos of Marsham street at 6pm

 

[Gramsci]

Oh, Gramsci, thank you for taking the time to take the photos and upload them here, am hugely appreciating your efforts.

Thanks.

Im trying to give picture of the average XR protestors not the leaders like Hallam.

Like last time I have a lot of respect for these XR protestors from what I've seen of them at ground level so to speak.

 

[redcogs]

brilliant information Gramsci - thumbs up