Electric cars

[Saul Goodman]

I was, but looks like I was wrong - and tbf you can still find plenty of older articles talking about them being incombustible or inflammable but

How safe are lithium iron phosphate batteries?

Researchers in the United Kingdom have analyzed lithium-ion battery thermal runaway off-gas and have found that nickel manganese cobalt (NMC) batteries generate larger specific off-gas volumes, while lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries are a greater flammability hazard and show greater...

www.pv-magazine.com

linking to: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352152X24008739#fig1

“Hence LFP presents a greater flammability hazard even though they show less occurrence of flames in cell thermal runaway tests,” the researchers said."

(published very recently, the edition is dated 15th May 2024!)

So I'm thinking that earlier tests had just been looking at the occurence of flames.

Still harder to make it catch fire than Li-ion as needs a higher temperature, and I think less likely to create a flame itself so needs an external flame, which is why they could create those tests pretty easily.

Thankfully of course, there's nothing else that might cause a spark or fire in a car crash... I suppose that this comes down to protecting the battery from external flames properly, which is definitely a better issue to be dealing with than the internal battery chemistry.

That pretty much sums it up. Less outgassing, more flammable outgassing. Less likely to self combust but more flammable if they do combust.
They probably are safer, but I wouldn't want to sleep in the same house as a damaged one. I've seen too many lithium battery fires to trust any of them.

What I think should be obligatory on all EVs is gas detectors in the battery compartment, to warn of any outgassing before It's too late to do anything about it. Granted, you won't always get a warning but the potential for catastrophic failure should dictate the use of all possible safety measures. It all seems a bit wild west at the moment.

 

[Looby]

Pod Point Home Charger

You get that installed when you are certain you will get an EV.

You then need to find an energy supplier that does an EV rate for cheaper leccy overnight. We moved to Octopus and whilst I can't remember the exact numbers it was something like 35p per kwh for regular pricing during the day, 6p per kwh between midnight and 5am. You will need to have a smart meter installed for this to work, Octopus did that at no cost to us.

If you have just fixed it with Eon, check with them if they have an EV deal and whether you can switch to it if you stay with them.

Something weird about the tariff, the first one Octopus gave us wouldn't work with our car, they said the make was too old, even though the car only came out in February 2023 and we got it in June 2023, so they had to switch to a different tarrif, really can't work out what that was all about tbh.

Once you do get it sorted, you plug it in every evening when you get home and set the car up to talk to the charger so it starts charging at midnight and ends at 5am, or whatever time your cheap leccy is. If it's fully charged (80%) before that it will just stop anyway, if not fully charged and you need it to be fully charged you can ask it to carry on charging once the more expensive rate kicks in.

Thanks. Test driving 3 cars on Saturday then hopefully get mine valued and make a decision.

 

[hash tag]

Thanks. Test driving 3 cars on Saturday then hopefully get mine valued and make a decision.

Good luck with that and do report back how it goes. There is a big difference to driving one in standard mode in comparison to the mode that
uses regenerative braking. I use the regen braking all the time and rarely touch the brakes.

 

[Looby]

Good luck with that and do report back how it goes. There is a big difference to driving one in standard mode in comparison to the mode that
uses regenerative braking. I use the regen braking all the time and rarely touch the brakes.

I don’t really understand what this means but I’m sure I’ll find out when I drive one.

 

[hash tag]

Leccy cars are quite powerful beasts and are less powerful with regen braking. Driven carefully, they will slow you nicely to a stop just by lifting you foot off the accelerator. The work cars will creep when standing still in normal mode but will not move in regen mode. Regen mode also helps to recharge the battery.
I'm the only one of two people at work who uses regen mode. All the others hate it because they might not have got to grips with it.

 

[Looby]

Leccy cars are quite powerful beasts and are less powerful with regen braking. Driven carefully, they will slow you nicely to a stop just by lifting you foot off the accelerator. The work cars will creep when standing still in normal mode but will not move in regen mode. Regen mode also helps to recharge the battery.
I'm the only one of two people at work who uses regen mode. All the others hate it because they might not have got to grips with it.

I think I just need to try it.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Third fastest car to ever go around the Nürburgring, the fastest ever to use the fundamental chassis and powertrain of its road-legal version.

 

[Looby]

Leccy cars are quite powerful beasts and are less powerful with regen braking. Driven carefully, they will slow you nicely to a stop just by lifting you foot off the accelerator. The work cars will creep when standing still in normal mode but will not move in regen mode. Regen mode also helps to recharge the battery.
I'm the only one of two people at work who uses regen mode. All the others hate it because they might not have got to grips with it.

I test drove a Tesla on Saturday among other things and really liked the regen braking. It would take a while to get properly used to but on a 30 min drive I used my brakes twice and probably didn’t need to then.

I’m not getting it but it was a lovely car.

 

[T & P]

Leccy cars are quite powerful beasts and are less powerful with regen braking. Driven carefully, they will slow you nicely to a stop just by lifting you foot off the accelerator. The work cars will creep when standing still in normal mode but will not move in regen mode. Regen mode also helps to recharge the battery.
I'm the only one of two people at work who uses regen mode. All the others hate it because they might not have got to grips with it.

During a recent trip to Madrid I naively chose an electric car thinking there would surely be some charing stations around town. Two days into the rental and still with a day to go, my charge was at about 30%. I changed the mode to regen, and the car did remarkedly well, and I managed to get another day of driving and the final trip back to the airport and still had 11% charge left.

Got used to it very quickly, and in a way I actually ended up rather enjoying it.

 

[T & P]

I posted this on the ‘SUVs are evil’ thread in the climate change forum, but I think it deserves a mention here too.

‘Yes, Lego car!’: why small electric cars could be about to break the grip of SUVs

The 500kg Microlino is part of a new set challenging the ever-increasing domination of huge cars

www.theguardian.com

I quite like the thing; it does 90 kph/56 mph so can go on proper roads even if slowly, and charges out of an ordinary household socket.

Alas, the price is a fucking joke and most sales are likely to be vanity second car purchases for the rich. The Guardian is wrong to portray this as a direct answer to SUVs, but if it’d been 12k instead of 22k it would have certainly taken some still-much-larger models off the road, certainly for single drivers and child-free couples.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It can only really be a second car. What happens if you live in London but from time to time wish to visit relatives in Bristol? Not only would you need to stop and charge multiple times, I’d shit my pants by Heston Services mixing with the traffic in that thing.

Btw my car can charge from a three-pin plug too, 10-80% takes a mere 3.5 days…

 

[T & P]

It can only really be a second car. What happens if you live in London but from time to time wish to visit relatives in Bristol? Not only would you need to stop and charge multiple times, I’d shit my pants by Heston Services mixing with the traffic in that thing.

Btw my car can charge from a three-pin plug too, 10-80% takes a mere 3.5 days…

Bath Road FTW . Though I doubt there are many charging opportunities along the way.

It claims some 130 miles range. Don't know what might turn out to be in real life use, though...

 

[Saul Goodman]

I posted this on the ‘SUVs are evil’ thread in the climate change forum, but I think it deserves a mention here too.

‘Yes, Lego car!’: why small electric cars could be about to break the grip of SUVs

The 500kg Microlino is part of a new set challenging the ever-increasing domination of huge cars

www.theguardian.com

I quite like the thing; it does 90 kph/56 mph so can go on proper roads even if slowly, and charges out of an ordinary household socket.

Alas, the price is a fucking joke and most sales are likely to be vanity second car purchases for the rich. The Guardian is wrong to portray this as a direct answer to SUVs, but if it’d been 12k instead of 22k it would have certainly taken some still-much-larger models off the road, certainly for single drivers and child-free couples.

£22,000

 

[A380]

Booked a small electric car for my current trip, got upgraded to a polestar, it’s great so far. But it did take me five minutes to work out how to open the boot…

 

[T & P]

Booked a small electric car for my current trip, got upgraded to a polestar, it’s great so far. But it did take me five minutes to work out how to open the boot…View attachment 427632

It is weird isn’t it, how most EV manufacturers have taken it upon themselves to add a myriad of new gadgets and automated functions nobody had asked for. No wonder they remain ridiculously more expensive than even the same brand’s equivalent ICE model.

The most satisfying one was the e-Golf. Chiefly because it was pretty much identical to a petrol Golf other than the propulsion system. But from the parking brake to the dashboard display to the very design of the model, it’s almost as if most car makers have split their design and engineering staff into unconnected ICE and EV divisions, and instructed the latter to design their future models as differently as possible from their legacy ICE ones.

 

[Winot]

I hired a early Tesla once in San Francisco. Had some spare time before my meetings so drove over the Golden Gates Bridge and parked in the viewing area. Got out for a bimble and realised I had no idea how to lock it. No instructions anywhere. Assumed it locked automatically when you walked away so tried doing that then dashing back to see if it was locked. Nope. Eventually had to download instruction booklet from the web. Turns out you have to place the keycard on the discrete Tesla symbol on the bit of the car between the two offside windows. Thanks Elon

 

[hash tag]

It is weird isn’t it, how most EV manufacturers have taken it upon themselves to add a myriad of new gadgets and automated functions nobody had asked for.

But this happens every time a car is refreshed or a new model bought out. My Mazda, I avoided a slightly newer model as it had an electric parking brake.
It has a variety of features that I tend not to use; not a problem. But all the computers, cameras, sensors Etc. cars are generally getting much more difficult and
expensive to repair. You can have a 20 year old Micra with very few gadgets but alas it won't be ULEZ compliant and nor will it be the safest car in the event of a crash.

 

[Chz]

I think railing against EPBs is tilting at windmills. It's cheaper, it's safer, I'd expect 100% of cars more complex than a Morgan to have them in the next few years.

 

[hash tag]

Another issue is there is little, if any regulation regarding the calibration of public charging points in a way that petrol pumps have.

 

[hash tag]

EV fire destroys 140 cars...could have been any type of car I guess. Are electric fires more difficult to contain than petrol or diesel ones?

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/south-korea-holds-emergency-meeting-ev-fires-stir-consumer-fear-2024-08-12/

 

[Chz]

EV fire destroys 140 cars...could have been any type of car I guess. Are electric fires more difficult to contain than petrol or diesel ones?

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/south-korea-holds-emergency-meeting-ev-fires-stir-consumer-fear-2024-08-12/

In general, dino-powered cars are much more flammable than EVs. They have an accidental fire rate some 10x that of EVs. You hear about the EV ones both because they're rare and because EVs are still novel technology.

But yes, once you've managed to actually light a Lithium fire (it's not easy to), it burns rather more intensely than any petrol fire could.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Three electric London buses caught fire in the space of a fortnight just lately, so they're not doing too badly in the spontaneous combustion rankings.
The reason EV fires are relatively rare is because the technology is relatively new. As their batteries age, their internal resistance increases, along with the likelihood of them spontaneously combusting.

Here's what they look like when they go.

 

[Chz]

I can't comment on the most recent ones - I can't find a record for them - but in the 5 electric bus fires from 2020 to early 2024, four of them did not involve the battery at all and the last one was not caused by the battery.

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

There are definitely some issues with the buses in general, but they're not sparking up more than the diesel ones do and almost all of the fires were caused by electrical problems unrelated to the powerplant itself. Just a case of newer buses have more electrics in them and they have teething trouble.

The one that was related to the battery was classic user error -

The investigation identified evidence that a conductive coolant was inadvertently added to the battery coolant system that was designed to only be used with a non-conductive substance.

Edit: Data for all vehicle fires, as a comparison.

Fires by vehicle type

Questions to the Mayor: For each of the last five calendar years how many fires has the London Fire Brigade (LFB) attended for: a) electric motorbikes, b) electric pedal cycles, c) electric scooters, d) fossil fuel cars, e) electric cars, f) hybrid cars, g) fossil fuel buses, h) hybrid buses...

www.london.gov.uk

The main takeaway of which is "shitty electric bikes and scooters sent over from the lowest bidder in China are dangerous".

 

[T & P]

EV fire destroys 140 cars...could have been any type of car I guess. Are electric fires more difficult to contain than petrol or diesel ones?

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/south-korea-holds-emergency-meeting-ev-fires-stir-consumer-fear-2024-08-12/

Watching something on TV and can’t be bothered to find the story right now, but a while ago there was a news article about a Tesla catching fire in America and the fire brigade having to use several tens of thousands of litres to put it out, over several hours. It was so nigh on impossible to to put it out that the firemen resorted to phoning Tesla HQ halfway through to ask them if they had any tips on how to extinguish a fire in one of their cars.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Watching something on TV and can’t be bothered to find the story right now, but a while ago there was a news article about a Tesla catching fire in America and the fire brigade having to use several tens of thousands of litres to put it out, over several hours. It was so nigh on impossible to to put it out that the firemen resorted to phoning Tesla HQ halfway through to ask them if they had any tips on how to extinguish a fire in one of their cars.

I reckon the phoning Tesla bit is bollocks, as firefighters will be well trained in that sort of fire, but the rest will likely be true. You can't really put them out. You have to just control the fire 'til it decides it's done.

 

[T & P]

I reckon the phoning Tesla bit is bollocks, as firefighters will be well trained in that sort of fire, but the rest will likely be true. You can't really put them out. You have to just control the fire 'til it decides it's done.

You might right about the call. Having just googled the incident, what seemed to have happened was that as a result of that particular fire, firefighters asked publicly for suggestions (from both Tesla and the wider scientist/ engineering community at large) on how the fuck to put out Tesla battery fires.

It seems there was one other thing I misremembered. It wasn’t 20k- 30k litres it took to put out the fire;,it was 100,000

"You can't put them out": Tesla bursts into flames after Wakefield crash, raises concerns for firefighters

The lithium-ion batteries under the car pose a major hazard when the car is on fire.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[hash tag]

I can't comment on the most recent ones - I can't find a record for them - but in the 5 electric bus fires from 2020 to early 2024, four of them did not involve the battery at all and the last one was not caused by the battery.

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

There are definitely some issues with the buses in general, but they're not sparking up more than the diesel ones do and almost all of the fires were caused by electrical problems unrelated to the powerplant itself. Just a case of newer buses have more electrics in them and they have teething trouble.

The one that was related to the battery was classic user error -


Edit: Data for all vehicle fires, as a comparison.

Fires by vehicle type

Questions to the Mayor: For each of the last five calendar years how many fires has the London Fire Brigade (LFB) attended for: a) electric motorbikes, b) electric pedal cycles, c) electric scooters, d) fossil fuel cars, e) electric cars, f) hybrid cars, g) fossil fuel buses, h) hybrid buses...

www.london.gov.uk

The main takeaway of which is "shitty electric bikes and scooters sent over from the lowest bidder in China are dangerous".

That's not much of a base to go by. It's for London and fuel types are not recorded for cars and buses. I imagine there a many more ebikes and escooters than cars.
As for cheap bike and scooter imports from china; we are now on the verge of being flooded by cheap electric cars from china

 

[Chz]

That's not much of a base to go by. It's for London and fuel types are not recorded for cars and buses. I imagine there a many more ebikes and escooters than cars.
As for cheap bike and scooter imports from china; we are now on the verge of being flooded by cheap electric cars from china

Most fires have nothing to do with the fuel system, so it's not surprising that they're not recorded. I would feel confident in saying that in the situations where it did play a part they did record the fuel system. That's not to say all recorded entries involved the fuel system. Gosh that was an awful mouthful of words, but it's late and I can't reword it. The main point I'm trying to make is that cars and buses catch fire all the bloody time, but no one pays the slightest bit of attention unless they're electric. (or it's their car or bus on fire) Heck, my car's been on fire once.

 

[Signal 11]

can’t be bothered to find the story right now, but a while ago there was a news article

So you said on the previous page.

 

[hash tag]

From Autocar

"
Another study by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency found that EVs are 20 times less likely to catch fire than ICE cars.


An additional study by that agency and an American insurer found that just 25 out of 100,000 EVs suffer fire damage.


By comparison, 1530 per 100,000 ICE cars experience fire, and hybrid vehicles suffer a much higher risk of 3475 per 100,000."