EDL watch
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19force8
For the avoidance of faith
See the penultimate paragraph of post #18206
I'll go slowly for you.
What proportion of universities do you think had an SWP presence in the nineties? 10%? 20%? Certainly less than 30%, yes?
If your claim that SWP were "sucking the life out of causes and movements" was true then most of the other 70% plus universities would have had vibrant radical groups turning out well balanced activists by the score. So where are they?
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cantsin
Well-Known Member
easily said, but it certainly wasn't the Labour lot at our Uni in the late 80's / 90's breathing life into any 'causes' or 'movement's', more like chasing their own tails up bureaucratic cul de sacs - SWP / SWSS on other hand were v proactive, and willing to get stuck in ( eg : anti Alton Abortion Bill, anti fees, incl. decent little attempt to storm Parliament 87/ 88 ish ?)
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Fees never mentioned in 87/88
cantsin
Well-Known Member
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
loans, + with video evidence
Loans, yes. The battle of Westminster Bridge
cantsin
Well-Known Member
felt pretty full on the time that, OB infantry line suddenly parted, and the cavalry came charging, with us having v little room for manouvre / not much time to react - those that stayed / regrouped were fired up and proactive afterwards though, as far as it goes.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
That loans one was the first big demo I'd been on. Lots of disappointments after that...
It seems like the SWP had lots of younger members until a few years ago? Was there some kind of incident which made them all leave?
It seems like the SWP had lots of younger members until a few years ago? Was there some kind of incident which made them all leave?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Marxism starts tomorrow. Back in the 90s it was massive. Now it's smaller than the London lib dem Friday drinks
Tom A
Goat among sheep
Their bite has become incredibly feeble, but their bark is as loud as ever.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Their bite has always been feeble
Tom A
Goat among sheep
Yeah but you can barely feel any pressure there at all now.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I never felt any pressure from the SWP anyway
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Interesting that this article is written by Comrade Delta & co; D ream Deferre d & has similar position as SWP/SUTR/ UAF !
It's been rumoured that he is close to top figures in S WP such as Judith Orr.
Had the impression that in some way they had learned the lessons of ANAL II under Julie Waterson with regards receiving 'intelligence' from Searchlies with UAF, especially after disagreements between Searchlight & Hope Not Hate a while later, distancing themselves somewhat from them.
Out of desperation and loss of credibility in dealing with anti racism/fascism that is generally even reluctantly accepted among their new supporters; mainly through SUTR's newly gained backing by Momentum and others on Labour Left/Centre Left; some sort of arching agreement between SWP & Searchlight is being sort ?
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Besides that there was a brief spell where the greens looked like a good place to call home before being abandoned by hysteria for Oh Jeremy Corbyn.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
some truth in what you say, but the SWP placards on the Grenfell march was a f*cking joke, they just make mugs of themselves in those situations, no base amongst the residents, it just looks like naked, middle class lefty opportunism
Tom A
Goat among sheep
The ability of the SWP to dominate campaigns and movements has been greatly diminished, and where they do predominate it is due to ordinary people not bothering (I feel much happier when the home-made placards and banners outnumber the Socialist Worker ones, and indeed all other mass-produced placards). These days they are just an irritating eyesore and embarrassment to themselves to which the rest of us either pay no heed or are openly hostile to because of Comrade Delta. I do wish that people wouldn't just naively pick up their placards though - though Saturday before last I did see people who had deliberately torn off the "Socialist Worker" from the top.
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newbie
undisambiguated
that's good. I looked and didn't see, and came away thinking that another Great British Tradition had declined.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Unfortunately this doesn't appear to be true !
Still look they can pull over a thousand people (a lot who should know better) !
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Did any political organisation, other than possibly Labour, have a base amongst the residents? Maybe their response for the march was over the top, but there's good reason for lefties to get involved.
The Grenfell Tower Action Group are part of a wider housing org.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
The author (well one of) is definitely the most interesting part of the article. It lead me to look at the DD site. It's not bad. If I didn't know of and have an opinion about one of the lead contributors, I'd probably bookmark it (or whatever young people do nowadays).
You're reaching a bit on a putative Searchlight/SWP connection. Publishing articles by Martin Smith is an unusual way to cosy up to the SWP - they'd much rather never hear his name again. I don't doubt there's still a few of his friends at all levels of the organisation, but even four years on all the members I've mentioned it to are firmly against any attempt at rapprochement.
BTW, "desperation and loss of credibility in dealing with anti racism/fascism" isn't something I'm seeing. Care to elaborate?
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Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
" Publishing articles by Martin Smith is an unusual way to cosy up to the SWP - they'd much rather never hear his name again. I don't doubt there's still a few of his friends at all levels of the organisation, but even four years on all the members I've mentioned it to are firmly against any attempt at rapprochement."
This is not altogether true is it !
This is probably not the right thread to discuss this issue; Maybe SWP EXPULSIONS may be better !
SWP expulsions and squabbles
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Again with the gnomic assertions. Are you asking or telling? If the former, already answered, if the latter, please explain.
You still haven't answered my last question about the "air of desperation." Any chance?
My comments were mostly relevant to this thread (i.e. relations between antifascist groups). If you want a sectarian chat about the SWP Expulsions I'm not that interested.
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Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
There's plenty of evidence of UAF/SUTR and SWP in general being less than successful and pissing off genuine campaigners; suggest you talk to activists within Kent Anti Racism Network and how they operated around migrants/refugees campaigns.
Dover & Liverpool stick out but around the country there is a similar picture.
What does Dover Mean for Antifascists?
Kent Anti-Racism Network
Merseyside Anti-Fascist Network
I don't want to derail this thread with even more, 'Why The SWP Are Shit.' Which is a general consensus among many if not majority of activists on Left and most of all among their ex comrades !
Incidentally I know several ex hacks and sycophants from SWP who had stuck with the party going back as far as IS; 1976/77 who have now left; not just because of Comrade Delta scenario but also the whole way they have degenerated into this sick nasty little cult.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
It wasn’t me that made (still) unfounded claims about SWP and Searchlight getting together, nor did I post a 1hr20min video of the Marxism rally. Derailing FFS!
The AFN report of Dover is interesting for what it doesn’t say. You’d think 150 “locals and AFN” were the only anti-fascists in Dover that day. Not the story my kids tell, which includes an anti-fascist photographer being hunted down, kicked and beaten with a scaffolding pole. Similarly, at Liverpool when AFN gets kettled and breaks out it’s heroic, but when UAF does, it’s pathetic. Everyone does biased reporting.
But in the interests of not derailing the thread too much I’ll be brief rather than answer point by point.
The SWP aren’t what you’d call big, but they do a lot of campaigning (not “genuine” campaigning, of course) which puts them in touch with a lot of people. Inevitably they piss some off. So what? I’m sure the SP would get a similar reaction if they could focus on anything other than the next election. Anarchists are different though, they never fuck up. No no, that’s not quite right, they never have to take responsibility.
As for the Martin Smith scandal (BTW please stop being pretentious and use his name – Comrade Delta was the invention of Socialist Unity), the SWP got it spectacularly wrong at every stage (bar, possibly, the last). I don’t know enough about the SP to say for certain, but I’d be surprised if they hadn’t fucked up the odd internal disciplinary. I do, however, know anarchists well enough to say they routinely cover up cases of sexual assault and rape, but no big fuss because there’s never anyone to take responsibility for their mess.
The AFN report of Dover is interesting for what it doesn’t say. You’d think 150 “locals and AFN” were the only anti-fascists in Dover that day. Not the story my kids tell, which includes an anti-fascist photographer being hunted down, kicked and beaten with a scaffolding pole. Similarly, at Liverpool when AFN gets kettled and breaks out it’s heroic, but when UAF does, it’s pathetic. Everyone does biased reporting.
But in the interests of not derailing the thread too much I’ll be brief rather than answer point by point.
The SWP aren’t what you’d call big, but they do a lot of campaigning (not “genuine” campaigning, of course) which puts them in touch with a lot of people. Inevitably they piss some off. So what? I’m sure the SP would get a similar reaction if they could focus on anything other than the next election. Anarchists are different though, they never fuck up. No no, that’s not quite right, they never have to take responsibility.
As for the Martin Smith scandal (BTW please stop being pretentious and use his name – Comrade Delta was the invention of Socialist Unity), the SWP got it spectacularly wrong at every stage (bar, possibly, the last). I don’t know enough about the SP to say for certain, but I’d be surprised if they hadn’t fucked up the odd internal disciplinary. I do, however, know anarchists well enough to say they routinely cover up cases of sexual assault and rape, but no big fuss because there’s never anyone to take responsibility for their mess.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
"political organisations" were nothing to do with the Grenfell response, it was anger + self organisation, they didnt / don't need placards or politicos
The Flying Pig
Well-Known Member
Do i get the gist that you are not particularly keen on anarchists?
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Some of my best friends are anarchist.
Actually, that's a lie, one good friend still considers himself an anarchist, but he hasn't done politics since getting a good job and a house ten years ago so maybe he doesn't count.
I've met a few over the years through union work and campaigns and they been decent in about the same proportion as others on the left - ie mostly.
On the other hand, nowadays there seems to be a tendency that sees smashing the SWP (first, then the SP, etc) as their main goal. One of my kids at university was screamed at, threatened and ostracised simply for challenging calling the SWP a rape cult.
So I treat them pretty much as I find them - I ignore the cunts where I can, tolerating them if I have to, and treat the rest like human beings. Just like any other political group really.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
AFN now are all Anarchists ?
Where I am the majority are in Labour Party now, another in Green Party and two autonomists !
19force8: " I’m sure the SP would get a similar reaction if they could focus on anything other than the next election. Anarchists are different though, they never fuck up. No no, that’s not quite right, they never have to take responsibility."
Socialist Party/YRE and similar groups & individuals in and around them have acted completely differently in the context of anti fascism/racism and commendably in at least two confrontations; Aylesbury & Coventry, at Slough SP members chose to stay with those blocking E D L rather than being sidelined by UAF who wished to stand on sidelines & two comrades from SP were arrested after activity in Welling 2009 with other militant anti fascists !
Don't try to dirty the waters in some hope of trying to make out that this is some kind of sectarian dig.
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