EDL watch

[treelover]

eh? i havent noticed any wet christian liberals in LU. You're making even less sense than normal

No, but the idea of LU is to be a broad based party which will include such people, they will know the contempt you have for them and others.

 

[Ranbay]

BBC giving TR another platform... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22852764

It's kicking off on Twitter, he was given an easy ride and nobody challanged his bonkers made up FACTS from what i have read.

 

[protesticals]

read the whole discussion, that doesnt actually follow at all

Of course it follows. I don;t want the EDL on a march for gay rights (possibly with islamists counter demonstrating), I wouldn't want to demonstrate against the EDL with Homophobes, wife beaters or people who demand the death penalty for apostacy. It seems the UAF don't mind the latter.

As pointed out many aeons ago, they were told to fuck off from the front of the demo with their flag. But I dont think they could effectively be completely stopped. The clip this discussion has all flowed from shows one person waving a flag around none of us have been able to really identify (altho it very probably is a jihadist flag). Most of the people around it at the time wouldn't even have been able to see it, still less know what it was. You cant expect people who cant see a flag to remove it.

And, frankly, having a thousand white folks standing around opposing the EDL is a pretty bloody good way of undercutting the jihadists nonsense that all whiteys want to see muslims burn in hell. As a way of undermining islamism, it seems far more successful than tying to force a couple of people of a demo.

And yet the Jihadists are constantly recruiting more people.

 

[belboid]

Well surely you should then make the argument(s) on grounds of effectiveness or on what potential scenarios are possible etc, not on dismissing opposition because it's based on moralism. Every person who was there was there out of some sense of moralism - and as said, that doesn't preclude thinking and acting strategically, rather it demands it.

UAF have severely limited their possible range of strategic or tactical action in regards to fundies being on their demos and being very visible by narrowing down their focus and repeated blind-eyeism - and even if they hadn't they would be unable to productively carry through any other activity. Which mean opposition is going to have to come from outside of their ranks and from hard work to isolate the idiots before the demos. The jihadis are going to say what you suggest whatever happens - if they're removed it's a victory for them if they aren't it's a victory for them, so their strategic interests should not the #1 priority.

I agree, opposing the EDL is the central priority (of an anti-EDL demo). Thus strong denunciations of the extremists actions should be made (and, in this case, were). Mid to long-term, such work must indeed be done. But, on one particular day, if they do still turn up, what then?

 

[DotCommunist]

if you read the report earlier he insinuates that muslims might have done it themselves, presumably as a false flag or something

If I'm honest, I'm completely sceptical that it is even non-Muslims that have done that

 

[belboid]

No, but the idea of LU is to be a broad based party which will include such people, they will know the contempt you have for them and others.

and, as I just said, I have no problem working alongside such people in specific campaigns. When they argue for wet liberal politics (such as the bishop requesting we let 'just fifteen' EDLers put down their flowers last week) I'll oppose them.

 

[belboid]

Of course it follows. I don;t want the EDL on a march for gay rights (possibly with islamists counter demonstrating), I wouldn't want to demonstrate against the EDL with Homophobes, wife beaters or people who demand the death penalty for apostacy. It seems the UAF don't mind the latter.

Neither do I, but that wasn't the question. How would removing the EDL play into the hands of homophobes on that occasion?

 

[protesticals]

So you'd be for the physical ejection of 'islamists' Always? How about if they arent waving big flags about, but have a dodgy looking badge? Should they be ejected? I'm really not at all sure how this can work out in practise. Which is my point,

All looney bombers were condemned by speaker after speaker. It was made clear that no one considered Lee Rigby a 'legitimate target.' 'jihadism' was fairly clearly verbally opposed.

Yes I am always against Islamists even if they aren't wearing any badges or waving flags. I'd kick Tommy Robinson out of a Gay event even if he turned up dressed in a massive pink triangle.

 

[J Ed]

I agree, opposing the EDL is the central priority (of an anti-EDL demo). Thus strong denunciations of the extremists actions should be made (and, in this case, were). Mid to long-term, such work must indeed be done. But, on one particular day, if they do still turn up, what then?

Well I spoke to one of the organisers about the flag and he told me that it was probably alright because they "weren't Al-Qaeda, just Hizb ut-Tahrir". This being the Hizb ut-Tahrir that's so extreme that even the mealy mouthed NUS no platformed it back way back in 2004.

 

[DotCommunist]

Yes I am always against Islamists even if they aren't wearing any badges or waving flags. I'd kick Tommy Robinson out of a Gay event even if he turned up dressed in a massive pink triangle.

he normally prefers rabbi costumes when doing fancy dress

 

[belboid]

Yes I am always against Islamists even if they aren't wearing any badges or waving flags. I'd kick Tommy Robinson out of a Gay event even if he turned up dressed in a massive pink triangle.

Stephen Yardley-Lennon is quite recognisable with or without badges. How are you going to recognise jihadists if they arent waving flags or whatever? If they look like just people on a demo?

 

[butchersapron]

I agree, opposing the EDL is the central priority (of an anti-EDL demo). Thus strong denunciations of the extremists actions should be made (and, in this case, were). Mid to long-term, such work must indeed be done. But, on one particular day, if they do still turn up, what then?

Well then it's going to come down to what effects the prior work has had and on who. If it's had none and we have the usual UAF shouters and non-aligned then it's highly likely to be a situation where the largest element won't want to confront them (and who would probably be unable to for a number of immediate reasons) and a smaller bunch who don't want to break the 'unity' or act unilaterally (even if they could). If however, there has been that hard work put in beforehand to isolate and surround these idiots and a political understanding of why they are poison and exactly what the edl want and need has been built then i think they could be effectively got rid of rather quickly. There was only a handful of them from what i could see in that vid above - situation not the same in the one from luton we were discussing last week.

 

[J Ed]

UAF and fellow travellers were more than happy to confront Peter Tatchell for having the temerity of holding a placard saying “Gays & Muslims UNITE! Stop the EDL” in Tower Hamlets. Depressing how easily that was managed but confronting someone with actual far-right Islamist views is beyond the pale.

 

[J Ed]

Stephen Yardley-Lennon is quite recognisable with or without badges. How are you going to recognise jihadists if they arent waving flags or whatever? If they look like just people on a demo?

Surely just as you wouldn't kick BNP members off a bedroom tax protest, but would if they held BNP placards - the same would hold true for far-right Islamists?

 

[Pickman's model]

Stephen Yardley-Lennon is quite recognisable with or without badges. How are you going to recognise jihadists if they arent waving flags or whatever? If they look like just people on a demo?

There is no such person as stephen yardley-lennon.

 

[Ranbay]

Yeah his name is....... Paul Steven Tommy Harris Lennon Yaxley Robinson.

 

[Citizen66]

Stephen Yardley-Lennon is quite recognisable with or without badges. How are you going to recognise jihadists if they arent waving flags or whatever? If they look like just people on a demo?

Well you can't. Which is why it's importsnt to state that position when publicising events.

 

[Pickman's model]

Surely just as you wouldn't kick BNP members off a bedroom tax protest, but would if they held BNP placards - the same would hold true for far-right Islamists?

I think belboid holds to a 'don't ask don't tell' policy for fascists secular or religious

 

[protesticals]

Neither do I, but that wasn't the question. How would removing the EDL play into the hands of homophobes on that occasion?

How would removing Islamacists play into the hands of anti-Muslims and racists?

Stephen Yardley-Lennon is quite recognisable with or without badges.

So is Anjem Choudray

 

[protesticals]

he normally prefers rabbi costumes when doing fancy dress

They are very suitable for one who has achieved middle age. The frock coat is very slimming and the yarmulke usefully covers up the expanding bald patch.

 

[belboid]

Well then it's going to come down to what effects the prior work has had and on who. If it's had none and we have the usual UAF shouters and non-aligned then it's highly likely to be a situation where the largest element won't want to confront them (and who would probably be unable to for a number of immediate reasons) and a smaller bunch who don't want to break the 'unity' or act unilaterally (even if they could). If however, there has been that hard work put in beforehand to isolate and surround these idiots and a political understanding of why they are poison and exactly what the edl want and need has been built then i think they could be effectively got rid of rather quickly. There was only a handful of them from what i could see in that vid above - situation not the same in the one from luton we were discussing last week.

Surely just as you wouldn't kick BNP members off a bedroom tax protest, but would if they held BNP placards - the same would hold true for far-right Islamists?

well, I'd rather some other muslim person did it - for purely tactical reasons. If it is actually practical to do so, then I'd probably agree. Just as the bloke did get the islamist to stop flying the flag at the front of the demo. But how you stop someone just whipping it out again, I dont know.

The BNP is different just because we do know immediately that their banner is a BNP one - we understand the letters. When we aren't sure (as most people near the flag waver in that video undoubtedly aren't sure), then I am not sure what can be done.

I think I agree with butch's points above. The work needs to be done beforehand, it cant just be done on the demo without massive disruption.

 

[Frances Lengel]

Belboid's a nob - If some clown stood next to me turned out to be a wanker (or radical islamist or whatever), then yeah, I'd consider it my duty to attempt to remove them. Shouldn't that go without saying?

 

[belboid]

How would removing Islamacists play into the hands of anti-Muslims and racists?


So is Anjem Choudray

and all jihadists look like him? What about the rest? I answered your previous question already

 

[belboid]

Belboid's a nob - If some clown stood next to me turned out to be a wanker (or radical islamist or whatever), then yeah, I'd consider it my duty to attempt to remove them. Shouldn't that go without saying?

'a wanker' - well, i'm sure you think there are plenty of them, so you'd be a busy boy

 

[treelover]

massive backtracking going on there.

 

[belboid]

Well you can't. Which is why it's importsnt to state that position when publicising events.

exactly. So what do you do if they came without reading your literature, or because they read another groups literature? Once they are there....

 

[J Ed]

well, I'd rather some other muslim person did it - for purely tactical reasons. If it is actually practical to do so, then I'd probably agree. Just as the bloke did get the islamist to stop flying the flag at the front of the demo. But how you stop someone just whipping it out again, I dont know.

I think that you're absolutely right here, but it's sort of a chicken and an egg situation in some respects because there are at least some Muslims who are put off from going to UAF demos because they know that there is a good chance that Islamists are going to be there. I have a left leaning Iranian friend whose attitude to the UAF was negative, despite the fact that he has received a lot of racist abuse from EDL types where he lives, purely because he associated the organisation with supporting groups like Al-Muhajiroun.

 

[treelover]

EDL leader's interview on Radio 4's Today draws fierce criticism

BBC under fire from ex-MP and an al-Jazeera presenter over Tommy Robinson's appearance on flagship programme

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/jun/11/edl-radio-4-today-bbc

The BBC has been accused of giving an uncritical platform to the leader of the English Defence League, who was interviewed on the Radio 4 Today programme on Tuesday morning.

The interview was branded "ludicrous" by critics on Twitter who questioned why Tommy Robinson, who is not an elected representative, was invited on the flagship programme at all.

It was a poor effort by Today, but since when has the Twitterati been seen as a valid form of critical opinion?, especially by the broadsheets

 

[DotCommunist]

for a while now, seem to remember the jan moir thing being the first time I spotted a twitterstorm pushing something into mainstream

 

[Citizen66]

exactly. So what do you do if they came without reading your literature, or because they read another groups literature? Once they are there....

I'd tell them to piss off.