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EDL watch

Let's have a bit of perspective please, all these events in Liverpool show is that the fash are still just about capable of making a nuiscance of themselves, nothing more. With sufficient preparation and a bit of hard work the fash in Liverpool yesterday could've been seen off, but based on previous years absolutely no-one, not even them, were expecting a large counter-demo at the march in Liverpool. It's caught a lot of people off guard, but it's not as if they're in any danger of making political progress with these tactics. The people who are involved in this ad hoc scouse fascist alliance are the absolute lunatic fringe, the dregs of the far-right, they're never going to appeal to the vast majority of people, working class or otherwise. Also, compared to the humiliations the EDL and other groups have endured over the last few months, like Tower Hamlets or the pitiful NWI demos, this is nowt.

The politics of the north-west is also a bit different than the situation nationally, as Nick Griffin is re-basing the BNP in that area to get him re-elected to the EU parliament. I agree with the sentiments already expressed that they're going back to the streets, partially because that's what the remaining members really want, and because there's nowhere else for them to go because of the failure of the BNP electorally. So, they're just clinging onto the coat-tails of the EDL and the other assorted fascists, who operate in a loose coalition in Liverpool and elsewhere in the region, and they'll be backing up the demonstrations in Hyde that are coming up. Over time I suspect this will fragment into infighting and the kind of nastiness that went on in Newcastle recently with the National Front, SDL and NWI, but it's something to be keeping an eye on.

As an adjunct to this there's the EDL documentary coming out. They're obviously doing a lot of their recent stuff with this in mind, hoping it will breathe life into an organization that looked like it was going to collapse by the end of last year.


Interesting points, and I agree to a certain extent. But I'd also like to mention that where the "Far Right lunatic fringe" is concerned, that a large number of them have always been like this. That doesn't make them less dangerous or able to disrupt our own activities.

In fact if a group of half-wit assorted islamaphobes and Hitler fetishists can cause any disruption whatsoever without being told to fuck off home, it probably says more about our own current organizational abilities.

I'd also like to say that I don't care if these Fascist coalitions are organizing in the NorthWest, the Midlands, or the South coast. People from outside of those areas should still be prepared to stand up to them if necessary. Otherwise we just get this notion of localised, parochial anti-fascism that (to me) doesn't seem to get us anywhere.
 
also would like to add in response to butchers that i didn't associate the working class with the left, in fact i did the opposite. stated better above but all i'm saying is that both bases should be covered.
 
Hold on a minute. Anti-Fascism isn't being suggested here as an end pursuit in itself. What the Liverpool situation shows is that you need to organize properly to protect your own political initiatives. Remember the 70's squads were originally put into action to defend the political work the SWP were doing because the Fash were trying to turn them over constantly.

This was extended when they kicked everyone out, and later AFA was launched as broad based group that would confront the fascists and protect marches, meetings, paper sales etc. Granted that AFA also took an offensive position too and disrupted Fascist activity wherever it arose. Nevertheless that tends to be the nature of Fascism....it doesn't accept any political debate or opposition, so the fact that they're present within the political arena will mean that you have to "keep the boot on the neck of the snake" so to speak.

I don't see fascism as a distraction, and I'm sure neither would anyone who was going about their political activities with the threat of them coming down on your back.

Sure effective anti-fascism does take up a lot of time and resources with intelligence gathering, monitoring etc etc. and god knows there were folks involved in AFA and RA who you'd consider full-time in that regard. But it's all done with the wider political picture in mind, and that is to allow progressive working class politics to live and breathe. We can start the other debate about what or how those politics should be defined, but I'm sure you understand what I mean.

I'd agree that the incident yesterday shouldn't be overblown, but neither should it be completely dismissed. As laughable as the EDL, BNP and fellow travellers are it'd be incredibly stupid to sit back and allow them to gain too many easy victories, which someone said earlier, will only allow confidence and numbers to grow.
I'm seeing nothing whatsoever being suggested as political responses to the far right on this thread. It's a list of facebook screengrabs and gossip. There is not a thing political on it.

This is not a comparable situation to the 70/80s - there are is no mass street far-right presence physically opposing 'our side' such that we have to 'hold the ring' - 'our side' do not exist in w/c communities (which is not an argument that they shouldn't be defended). There is no fascism of that nature tom oppose today. Now, the BNP might be re-thinking (i'm not so sure) but where is the evidence that the anti-fascists are?
 
again you're back on with not comprehending the purpose of the thread, which is to monitor the EDL and now the EDL diaspora. inject some of this debate if you like, everyone would no doubt appreciate it - but enough people have had enough direct experience with these groups to know that understanding how they operate is not a waste of time. i'm from the North West and believe me, EDL sympathy is crawling all over the place.
 
As laughable as the EDL, BNP and fellow travellers are it'd be incredibly stupid to sit back and allow them to gain too many easy victories, which someone said earlier, will only allow confidence and numbers to grow.

This is absolutely correct, and I think this is the main reason they had the demo yesterday. It was a self-concious attempt to boost confidence that the two organizations involved, the EDL and BNP, desperately need to revive their fortunes. Ireland has always been an issue they use to rally the troops, whip them up into a frenzy, but politically it does them no favours. It's not the 1970's and singing "no surrender to the IRA" in the streets today makes them look like dated NF throwbacks.

But you're right, we can't let them try and rebuild their confidence after the shitty year they've had, and even little demo's like this one have a clear affect on their self-esteem. They're going to feel empowered going into the Hyde demo, and I expect that to be a nasty affair.
 
There is a real danger of this degenerating into a discussion of how the far right can effect 'our activities' rather than impact on the w/c public poltical culture - another example of narrowing the focus. Given that there is a wide recognition that the left has no influence and no purchase in the w/c then what is this concern other than a hobby?
 
lots of ways, how do you think? as i say, inject these debates if you want. i have tonnes of ideas, most of them are tied down to more particular questions.

ETA that was a response to the post above
 
I'm seeing nothing whatsoever being suggested as political responses to the far right on this thread. It's a list of facebook screengrabs and gossip. There is not a thing political on it.

This is not a comparable situation to the 70/80s - there are is no mass street far-right presence physically opposing 'our side' such that we have to 'hold the ring' - 'our side' do not exist in w/c communities (which is not an argument that they shouldn't be defended). There is no fascism of that nature tom oppose today. Now, the BNP might be re-thinking (i'm not so sure) but where is the evidence that the anti-fascists are?

You're missing the point here. No ones acting like it's Lewisham '77. But you seem to be suggesting yourself that any kind of effective defence against Fascist groups (no matter how small or wacky in outlook) isn't worth considering. Remember the mention in BTF about "not waiting for Fascist groups to be larger and better organized before opposing them"?

It's a basic (and quite logical) security measure. That's all that's being discussed here.

As for working class politics to "replace the far right in WC communities", well many of us are probably already involved in differing political projects and groups, and I'm sure we've at times covered such issues in threads that are more geared towards that discussion.

This is not a personal insult or anything by the way. But I'm guessing some of what's being said will be taken the wrong way or mis-interpreted.
 
There is a real danger of this degenerating into a discussion of how the far right can effect 'our activities' rather than impact on the w/c public poltical culture - another example of narrowing the focus. Given that there is a wide recognition that the left has no influence and no purchase in the w/c then what is this concern other than a hobby?

and well for starters, i don't think the Sinn Fein marches in Liverpool are entireely devoid of a base in the working class, at least the Irish descent working class. the marches are an institution in some cities, Liverpool included, and in Liverpool it has never sucessfully been disrupted - ever.
 
This is absolutely correct, and I think this is the main reason they had the demo yesterday. It was a self-concious attempt to boost confidence that the two organizations involved, the EDL and BNP, desperately need to revive their fortunes. Ireland has always been an issue they use to rally the troops, whip them up into a frenzy, but politically it does them no favours. It's not the 1970's and singing "no surrender to the IRA" in the streets today makes them look like dated NF throwbacks.

But you're right, we can't let them try and rebuild their confidence after the shitty year they've had, and even little demo's like this one have a clear affect on their self-esteem. They're going to feel empowered going into the Hyde demo, and I expect that to be a nasty affair.

Del. Just noticed this posting, and agree with it entirely. I think we're basically saying the same thing here.
 
You're missing the point here. No ones acting like it's Lewisham '77. But you seem to be suggesting yourself that any kind of effective defence against Fascist groups (no matter how small or wacky in outlook) isn't worth considering. Remember the mention in BTF about "not waiting for Fascist groups to be larger and better organized before opposing them"?

It's a basic (and quite logical) security measure. That's all that's being discussed here.

As for working class politics to "replace the far right in WC communities", well many of us are probably already involved in differing political projects and groups, and I'm sure we've at times covered such issues in threads that are more geared towards that discussion.

This is not a personal insult or anything by the way. But I'm guessing some of what's being said will be taken the wrong way or mis-interpreted.
The point about self defence, aggressive attacks and being able to defend our events is basic - i hope we all agree and start from the understanding of the necessity of this. My point is that events is liverpool have been magnified because there's been a narrowing of focus onto these sorts of issues. And with this comes the oh my god it's your fault, that i read earlier on this thread. The reason yesterday happened was totally related to the lack of influence in w/c areas.

I know this is nothing new i'm saying, but frankly, after 7000 posts of the apolitical shit on this thread followed by the last posts, i think it does bear saying again.
 
and well for starters, i don't think the Sinn Fein marches in Liverpool are entireely devoid of a base in the working class, at least the Irish descent working class. the marches are an institution in some cities, Liverpool included, and in Liverpool it has never sucessfully been disrupted - ever.
Great arguments for orange marches.

Aside from not being anything to do with what i posted of course.
 
well from what you were saying i think it would be fair to say that you believe such events would only be really significant if the organisations being disrupted had a working class base. which this one does. sooo...
 
well from what you were saying i think it would be fair to say that you believe such events would only be really significant if the organisations being disrupted had a working class base. which this one does. sooo...
Oh god, only if you're concentrating on the event itself - not the surrounding network of things that it relies on to happen.
 
well from what you were saying i think it would be fair to say that you believe such events would only be really significant if the organisations being disrupted had a working class base. which this one does. sooo...
I'm saying it has no relevance because it's not tied to popular politics - beyond an anachronistic imagination of the streets played though youtube. Who the fuck even knows about the edl? People invested in them - 7000 posts.
 
The point about self defence, aggressive attacks and being able to defend our events is basic - i hope we all agree and start from the understanding of the necessity of this. My point is that events is liverpool have been magnified because there's been a narrowing of focus onto these sorts of issues. And with this comes the oh my god it's your fault, that i read earlier on this thread. The reason yesterday happened was totally related to the lack of influence in w/c areas.

I know this is nothing new i'm saying, but frankly, after 7000 posts of the apolitical shit on this thread followed by the last posts, i think it does bear saying again.

That's perfectly valid. The Fash are finding purchase again in some areas obviously because there's a distinct lack of any political alternative.

I can understand the blaming of events onto other things, but these are just practical or organizational considerations usually. The bigger picture is always key to the whole thing.

It's the reason why I mentioned about the UAF meeting in Leicester, which the Fash had threatened to turn over. Pointing out that if these groups had concentrated on putting down proper roots in WC communities, the guys turning up to the meeting would be defending it and not attacking it.
 
I'm saying it has no relevance because it's not tied to popular politics - beyond an anachronistic imagination of the streets played though youtube. Who the fuck even knows about the edl? People invested in them - 7000 posts.

again i think your incomprehension must come from you living in Bristol, because EVERYONE where i come from knows about them. they're a visible presence in my home town. near enough every time you go out on a weekend you hear an EDL chant somewhere.
 
Hence the 58 turn out. The cultural grasp they may have is a very different thing from their real reach or the influence they have on the ground. Branding is powerful. There are still school desks with NF scratched in them from when the NF had tens of members. I suspect you have a personal narrow focus as well.
 
your argument is so slippery, impossible to pin it down anywhere. so Sinn Fein does have a working class base, the EDL do have a genuine presence in the North West - but now the issue is that my focus is too personally narrow or something (??) you're just ceding ground and manouevreing responses without ever openly accepting your statements have been legitimately challenged. what is it that YOU are actually saying? all i can make out is that you don't think they're in the slightest relevant, only whenever we get into specifics it turns into this wriggly hydra of an argument.

btw i think the 58 turnout is a severe under-estimate. if you look at the video posted a few pages ago it's at least 100 or so. possibly 200. also don't know if that was taken before the 40 or so who'd been harassing the main march made it to the town centre.
 
Here's a video from the moment a group of 30 or 40 shouting ijiots come bowling up. Basically if the police hadn't been there at this point the fash would have probably stayed further back. Lot of tough looking guys in the marching bands there. Looks like the fash didn't even want to try to get thru. Just stood there posturing and givin it the biggun.

 
Here's a video from the moment a group of 30 or 40 shouting ijiots come bowling up. Basically if the police hadn't been there at this point the fash would have probably stayed further back. Lot of tough looking guys in the marching bands there. Looks like the fash didn't even want to try to get thru. Just stood there posturing and givin it the biggun.


That "police line" was so flimsy if the fash were intent on anything other than posturing they could have got at the march easily. The fact is that by the look of things they'd have got a battering from the band members .... Not seen any footage of any part of the march being attacked or this being a success for the fash apart from it being hyped up by the fash and those on the left who where nowhere near the event on the day, online
 
your argument is so slippery, impossible to pin it down anywhere. so Sinn Fein does have a working class base, the EDL do have a genuine presence in the North West - but now the issue is that my focus is too personally narrow or something (??) you're just ceding ground and manouevreing responses without ever openly accepting your statements have been legitimately challenged. what is it that YOU are actually saying? all i can make out is that you don't think they're in the slightest relevant, only whenever we get into specifics it turns into this wriggly hydra of an argument.

btw i think the 58 turnout is a severe under-estimate. if you look at the video posted a few pages ago it's at least 100 or so. possibly 200. also don't know if that was taken before the 40 or so who'd been harassing the main march made it to the town centre.
I don't think it's slippery. It's the same as ever. The rest is waffle.
 
That "police line" was so flimsy if the fash were intent on anything other than posturing they could have got at the march easily. The fact is that by the look of things they'd have got a battering from the band members .... Not seen any footage of any part of the march being attacked or this being a success for the fash apart from it being hyped up by the fash and those on the left who where nowhere near the event on the day, online

Obviously it's only a two minute segment. But I'd agree that in the beginning, especially those Fash by the tree, had literally no-one separating them from the march. From what friends told me (who actually called from the march) things did get a bit more hairy later on. The earlier post reprinted off the TAL forum pretty much stated the same.

At the end of the day, you can see how close they were allowed to get to the march, and whilst no doubt lacking the bottle to do anything at the point in the video above, are people willing to take that chance everytime? or shall they just wait until they're perceived as more likely to carry out these threats effectively? are they going to lack the bottle in every circumstance?

Quite frankly, it would have been preferable that the scum were chased with their arses out, up that street before they even had chance to come down it. Again, given the numbers and calibre of those shown, it wouldn't have been too difficult to do.

It's no "national emergency" or anything, but it would have at least guaranteed the security and integrity of the march, as well as putting a dent in the ambitions of any future forays in that direction.

As the old saying goes "at what point is physical opposition to Fascism to be considered unacceptable?"

As an extension of this question, it may be interesting to ask the posters on this board (given a hypothetical scenario) that if a group of National Front members were leafletting your street today, despite the general view that they're currently miniscule and most unlikely to achieve great things politically, if the chance arose to physically remove them from your area would you do it?...or safe in the strength of your analysis, would you instead stay at home and finish watching the Eastenders Omnibus?
 
Agree with you Sol, but it's the age old thing, how many times in the past was it put to these marches about getting their stewarding sorted? And how many times were AFA/RA rebuffed ? Talman sums it up well over on TAL :
"
It's all very well to call for numbers to boost the march, but mere weight of numbers is no protection against 200 fascists bent on stopping a march. There needs to be an organised FIGHTING stewards groups (i.e. these are not guys wearing bibs and pushing people into line, they should be FIGHTERS who are organised as a group OFF THE MARCH, not on it wearing useless fucking yellow bibs). A properly organised stewards group OFF THE MARCH can anticipate the fascists' moves and act offensively to combat them before they get within spitting distance of the march itself.

This is what Red Action and AFA always organised in the past, unfortunately republicans largely ignored the need for effective physical security both on and off the marches. Now that RA and AFA are no longer there to pick up the slack, it is incumbent upon the republican movement to protect their own marches and not simply to rely on the police to do it for them."
 
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