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EDL in Tower Hamlets on 20/06

raving on at a group of Muslims about their reactionary beliefs when in fact what is needed is for them to be united with is counter-productive and absent of class understanding.

eh? :D
are you saying they (as in Muslims) have to be united??
i hope that is just poor english on your part....

so how do we bring class unity into the equation? what issues do we unite people around? why did the demonstration organisers not push class issues - "jobs, homes, not racism, make the bankers pay for their crisis". Issues that would concretely 'unite'. What better way to show real unity of East End folk against a real and potentially divisive threat to all??
 
eh? :D
are you saying they (as in Muslims) have to be united??
i hope that is just poor english on your part....

so how do we bring class unity into the equation? what issues do we unite people around? why did the demonstration organisers not push class issues - "jobs, homes, not racism, make the bankers pay for their crisis". Issues that would concretely 'unite'. What better way to show real unity of East End folk against a real and potentially divisive threat to all??

a) obviously, i'm not arguing for some Islamic popular front.
b) i would agree with arguing that UAF demos should push jobs, homes, and other class issues on the platform. most SWP members i know do. however, the SWP doesn't control every aspect of UAF.

and even in the absence of these progressive campaigns, i would argue against the 70-esque culture politics being propounded by most of the urbanites on this thread.
 
you evidently don't have a very subtle understanding of religious communities, or the way to engage with them.

Do you engage with them by applying completely different rules to 'them' and 'us' and generally behaving like a patronising patriarch?

Because if so, I reckon you've got the formula sorted.
 
as mentioned, you engage with them by focussing on class unity, not by coming at them from an outsider perspective and protesting against 'mysogyny and homophobia within the Muslim community'
 
as mentioned, you engage with them by focussing on class unity, not by coming at them from an outsider perspective and protesting against 'mysogyny and homophobia within the Muslim community'

Also, I think you've characterised me a bit off here. I'm not for 'protesting against misogyny and homophobia in the (cough splutter) Muslim community'*. I'm just not for applying double standards and saying reactionary views are okay if you happen to not be white, which is essentially what SWP and UAF do.

Here's a novel idea; focus on class. Recognise the beleaguered and oppressed position of UK Muslims, absolutely, but - shock horror - Muslims are people too. They are no more or less likely to recognise their class interests than any other section of society.

The Swappies really did buy this whole multicultural divide and conquer bollocks wholesale didn't they?

*Christ I hate the use of 'the Muslim community', 'the Hindu community' blah blah
 
i'm perfectly happy to focus on class, moreso than is currently done at present within UAF. as i say, i also believe most SWP members take that default stance in their actions and speeches within UAF anyway. but if you're counterposing your argument against mine in context with this thread (and with no equivalent criticism of the majority of the thread who are equally critical of my position) then expect me to assume you're default defending their tactical position; i.e., that community events such as this Troxy one (which actually, when you look into it a little more, was actually organised by the moderates of the local Isoc, not wannabe terrorists) should be actively protested with equal vigour to the EDL demonstration.

if you genuinely can't see the difference between the two, then you're operating from fucking Mars.
 
i'm perfectly happy to focus on class, moreso than is currently done at present within UAF. as i say, i also believe most SWP members take that default stance in their actions and speeches within UAF anyway. but if you're counterposing your argument against mine in context with this thread (and with no equivalent criticism of the majority of the thread who are equally critical of my position) then expect me to assume you're default defending their tactical position; i.e., that community events such as this Troxy one (which actually, when you look into it a little more, was actually organised by the moderates of the local Isoc, not wannabe terrorists) should be actively protested with equal vigour to the EDL demonstration.

if you genuinely can't see the difference between the two, then you're operating from fucking Mars.

What a silly swerper...
 
i'm perfectly happy to focus on class, moreso than is currently done at present within UAF. as i say, i also believe most SWP members take that default stance in their actions and speeches within UAF anyway. but if you're counterposing your argument against mine in context with this thread (and with no equivalent criticism of the majority of the thread who are equally critical of my position) then expect me to assume you're default defending their tactical position; i.e., that community events such as this Troxy one (which actually, when you look into it a little more, was actually organised by the moderates of the local Isoc, not wannabe terrorists) should be actively protested with equal vigour to the EDL demonstration.

if you genuinely can't see the difference between the two, then you're operating from fucking Mars.

But I haven't passed comment on Troxy.

You seem to be saying that by not commenting I must therefore be wholly in favour of protesting against it. What strange logic.

As it happens, I know sweet fuck all about this Troxy shindig, nor anything about its organisers. Hence why I haven't commented. I know, I know, it's very novel isn't it?

I do know a little about how UAF operate, and of the deeply contradictory and confused approach to 'community cohesion' (eurgh - another term I despise) displayed by the SWP, however, so I am commenting on that.

I don't think any section of society, if espousing reactionary views, should be above and beyond reproach. I also recognise, however, that in terms of threat, fundies of all colours and creeds are pretty low down the pecking order, whereas yer EDL's are drawing out thousands on a fairly frequent basis; ergo this is where the focus should be.

Somewhere along the way, the SWP got themselves all into a tizwas with multiculturalism; and consequentially display the most appalling double standards and patriarchalism, supported by some very confused logic and a lot of moral indignation on behalf of 'teh Muslims', as if they were some homogeneous and exclusive club completely separated and isolated from every other section of society. And it really isn't doing anybody any good. I'd hoped that the Respect debacle might have shifted perspectives amongst the SWP, and for a time I think it may have started to, but then along came the EDL and the whole charade got reduced to pantomime. It is very unbecoming, and I'm at a loss to see where the socialism in all this is supposed to be.
 
as mentioned, you engage with them by focussing on class unity, not by coming at them from an outsider perspective and protesting against 'mysogyny and homophobia within the Muslim community'

What about genital mutilation? ignore that too? So called honour killings? Imprisonment of women in the home? Cultural issues eh? Do you not have a sense of right and wrong?
 
b) i would agree with arguing that UAF demos should push jobs, homes, and other class issues on the platform. most SWP members i know do. however, the SWP doesn't control every aspect of UAF.

You agree with me in theory here on this thread, when i raise it after you come out with a load of confused gobbledegook - but then you excuse your 'cdes' by claiming you do not control UAF.

Maybe as trot-style socialists you should take a leaf out of the old man's book (and your own, after all you reprinted it...) - organise a united front rather than a popular one - a common platform of anti-fascism based on class unity - rather than cross-class illusion. Unite around a common programme rather than liberal anti-nazi generalisations.

Stop inviting Tories to speak for a start - feckers like that create the situation fascism and racism is able to breed in
 
You agree with me in theory here on this thread, when i raise it after you come out with a load of confused gobbledegook - but then you excuse your 'cdes' by claiming you do not control UAF.

Maybe as trot-style socialists you should take a leaf out of the old man's book (and your own, after all you reprinted it...) - organise a united front rather than a popular one - a common platform of anti-fascism based on class unity - rather than cross-class illusion. Unite around a common programme rather than liberal anti-nazi generalisations.

Stop inviting Tories to speak for a start - feckers like that create the situation fascism and racism is able to breed in

where have Tories ever spoken at UAF events?
 
But I haven't passed comment on Troxy.

You seem to be saying that by not commenting I must therefore be wholly in favour of protesting against it. What strange logic.

no, i was saying that in the context of this debate if you wade in against me without referring to the arguments already going on (which you may or may not disapprove of) then it's fair for me to assume you support them.
 
a) that's not what i said, learn to fucking read
b) David Cameron isn't on the books, he said he supported UAF in a totally isolated situation with no UAF involvement whatsoever. all i'm asking you for is one single example to show you're not talking out of your arse
 
a) it's not the same thing you moron, and
b) i didn't know that and it's genuinely enough to make me consider leaving UAF and arguing against the entire strategy
 
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