I'm reminded as to why I don't like this forum...it makes you think too much! ;-)
Anyway, here's my input to the 'old bill' debate on here.
Yes, I did start the Harry Roberts song. A song that has been sung at football grounds up and the country in the past, and will continue to do so. It has been sung in the past at Hamlet matches too, now and again. The reason I sing it IS to rile the police. Nothing more nothing less. I know very little about Harry Roberts, apart from the fact he killed two coppers before I was born.
But I do know that all through my adult life, and as a 'juvenile' as a teenager, I have experienced the police go well beyond their remit in bullying, beatings, and totally breaking the law, at both football and on demo's, knowing they are almost certainly beyond reproach, with their word being taken over that of ordinary people who happen to be a different colour, working class, a football fan, or a trade unionist....for example, or a combination of those. I do not like the police and never will! Sometimes people ask me who I would call if my house was burgled. Yes, of course it would be the police. We DO need a police force, but we need an accountable one, & I do not believe that will ever happen. as far as I am concerned: the police are a neccessary evil...I do not have to like them1
Of course, I know a few serving officers, or ex-police. Without a doubt they are nice people, and I would be upset if anything happened to them, but that is only because I know them as individuals, and to be honest, I am always careful what I might say in front of them, in case something slips out in conversation which might 'interest them'. The bottom line is there is no such thing as an off-duty copper, and they are always on the listen for snippets, no matter how friendly. I do not trust them at all. I have no confidence in them, even when they 'do their job'.
Going back to Harry Roberts, if it riles the opposition then that's good enough for me, because of the very establishment institution they represent. As people have said he almost certainly was a nasty bastard, but he also now a very old man, who is only now still incarcerated because he is a 'political prisoner', and not because of his crime. He is simply going to rot in jail because he is Harry Roberts, and not because of his actual crime. He should have been released on licence a long time ago. I don't think, if he was ever released, he would be thinking of shooting anyone, whether it be coppers, or you or me.
Also going back to the chants on Tuesday...the only reason I started the Harry Roberts one, was because some of the others were singing some (my words) 'stupid wanky non football' All Coppers Are Bastards ditty, that i both never knew, and in my 'old school' head sounded fucking stupid for a football match, so I let rip with an old fashioned one. I'm certainly not going to apologise for that. As for the 'Kill The Bill' chant...that came spontaneously from me when there was a mass outbreak of handbags between the two teams on the pitch, and no worse than at other games, when the same thing might happen and individuals might shout 'do the Essex cunts!' or something similar.
Someone mentioned singing the 'Harry Roberts' song is not what the 'Rabble' is about. Well it's not what's sung at every game, and it was simply because of the opposition. If that was the case then i would be a bit more concerned. Personally I get more offended and embarrassed when some people sing the 'tits, fanny and Dulwich' chant. Each to their own. Or scream at an opposition player, or referee, calling them a cunt. So some things are acceptable, but some not?
The other week I was one of a dozen fans who made the trip to Leiston, on a Tuesday night. It was depressing...and not just because the performance on the pitch was below what we've grown used to. There was no singing, very little getting behind the team, but lots of negative, loud '"Oh come on Dulwich..this is rubbish" "shit" type of comments, which I found so depressing. It was like watch Dulwich six years ago, when there was very few fans going to away games, home crowds were in the very low hundreds, and I went to games out of habit, not something to look forward to, enjoy and be excited about. I was feeling down that night...because I had seen the past and don't want to go back.
For that, I can certainly cope with some of the 'new breed' of fan, whether their trying to create some sort of 'leftie enclave' or not. I don't think they're trying to 'convert' people to their cause, and don't think that's possible...but the spirit and fun these sort of fans are bringing to games is without a doubt encouraging more to come to games...and matchdays would be a lot duller without them. Their attitude is also helped is that my political outlook is generally extremely and broadly on the left.
I agree that courtesy works both ways...I think I have embraced the newer fans and love it, but I also know there are some that think you (& therefore by association me) are a pain in the arse. But across the board, I think the majority are behind us all, as it does increase the atmosphere and the total buzz about the Club, and portrays the Club, overall, in a very good light. And there are a few in the minoirty, who wil never be happy, no matter what.
With regard to Millwall in the Seventies and running off the National Front, well, I shal ltake the posters word for that...but I do know for a fact that at the start of the eighties the same National Front were active, in what numbers I do not know, outside the Cold Blow Lane end. So they may have been 'run' before that, but certainly came back and r-established themselves for a time. How do I know that? I was at school in Peckham at the time, and Millwall supporting mates always brought copies of the NF youth paper 'Bulldog' into school, and I saw it on sale when I went down The Den with them, even sometimes buying a copy myself, Personally I would have no problem with any group on the left leafleting at a Hamlet game..you may not agree with their views, but they do not discrimate against our players or fans, as the far right do.
With regard to becoming the 'English St Pauli'...well that's CLEARLY not going to happen. But I see nothing wrong with a group of lefties/anarchists/whoevers enjoying and leading the atmosphere at Champion Hill, which then spirals by attracting 'more of the same sort'. To be honest, Joe, your podcasts are helping to build that 'monster' that you are starting to dislike, and you can't have it both ways.
I can see the point comparing 'Harry Roberts' to Millwall fans with Turkey flags when they play Leeds...but there IS a huge subtle difference...Firstly, the Leeds thing is done deliberately to provoke opposition fans not the team. It is clear incitement to cause trouble. That could not happen at our games with the Met Police football team, as they have no fans. Secondly, Leeds United are not a state institution that many people dislike for a variety of football reasons. They are just a football team. Rightly or wrongly, the Met football team are seen as part of a state instution...well you know the politics, depends where your own views are really. Wouldn't mind us being an English altona though! ;-)
Agreed...a lot of their players are not coppers anymore, but AT LEAST half of their First Team squad are! And all of their officials (like our committee) are. And they are funded by serving and ex-police. Contrary to 'popular urban footballing myth' they are not dunded by our taxes, but through a Metropolitan Police internal lottery type thing, with big prizes. All of the funds raised are divvied up between the various police sports sections. The football section, as in the club we play, supply all of the players for the National Police Cup competition, and they are usually in the semi's or the final, and you MUST be a serving officer to play in that. They are VERY MUCH a police side, just one that allows a percentage of 'outsiders'.
With regard to what the 'Rabble' are...well as someone who has been part of 'The Rabble' since the phrase was first coined and adopted in the late eighties at the old ground...'The Rabble' is simple the group of fans who stand and sing behind the goal at home games. It is a very generalised name, and has no leaders, or political beliefs. It's just a group of fans who like singing and having a laugh....long may that continue. If individuals are leftie/anti-capitalist/middle class tossers/ whatever...then so be it. But 'The Rabble' has always just been a collective name for the loyal fans who go home and away. Nothing more, nothing less. And long may that continue...
As for people waffling on about communism, or whatever, it's inevitable that people chat about what they like. We'vw had the likes of Hutty waffling on for years, long before the new lot came along, and nobody ever shut him up! ;-) as for a wide range of flags...well if they don't discriminate against anyone then I have no problem with them. If you want 'less' of them then bring your own 'non-political' ones, and the 'political' ones will be in the minority.
To finish, with the mention of some abuse hurled at the Canvey keeper, it's the same abuse that could have, and has been in similar circumstances, by one or two on here, who criticise the Harry Roberts chant so strongly.
Proves we will never agree...and some things are always 'excused' by 'being drunk' eh?
Been great to have this discussion, and for people offering various views...now can we all get back to doing what we do best...supporting Dulwich Hamlet for ninety minutes and more!
"EDGAR KAIL IN MY HEART KEEP ME DULWICH!..."
