Drag Queen Story Times picketed by protestors who claim that it grooms children and promotes paedophilia

[Leighsw2]

You come on here after fascists have invaded a book reading for children by a drag queen to have a completely 'ignorant' debate about the meaning of drag with no sensitivity, interest or concern whatsoever about the role of drag in the history of gay men in this society. Our community is under attack. People like you are an accessory with your tedious 'debating points' about men in dresses. Just fuck off.

 

[Leighsw2]

...Gay men are not beyond questioning after all are they.

They fucking are by heterosexuals! (sorry, missed that point.)

 

[Puddy_Tat]

It isn't really a wider point though is it - it's a different point. Some drag queens have fascists chanting that they're paedophiles at their workplaces, and widening the discussion means talking about what's problematic about drag?

There are many things I could take issue with, for example, some black evangelical christian churches teaching on homosexuality, or conservative islamic approaches to women's role in society - things much less ambiguous or arguable than this. Would the right time to raise those things be when their churches and mosques are under attack from fascists, on a thread started to talk about those attacks? I'd get run off the thread.

seemed worth a repeat

 

[Ax^]

was this the patriotic alternative lot..

one of the odder groups who had a lib dem organiser, Nicholas Hill
who's best mate is a convicted podophile who got sent down in 2016 for trying to meet a 13 year old


these guys project so much its painful to watch, and amazing how many grown men
who spend their time obsessing over the sexualising of children and accusing others of being groomers should really start looking into the groups first before
looking outwards

 

[Leighsw2]

Now I've calmed slightly .... Let me make this point - I am a gay man. I am proud to be a gay man. And part of that pride is that we take no lectures or instructions from heterosexuals. Any heterosexuals. Regardless of their assigned birth gender. Some of the greatest enemies of our community have been women - Anita Bryant, Baroness Young, Mary Whitehouse. As with the anti-abortion campaign, women are often put to the fore to lend credence to anti-gay campaigns that are actually driven by men. So I have no time for those who disparage our culture (for which gender non-conformity has been a key element since the 16th century) regardless of whether they offer the claims of bourgeois identiarianism or not.

 

[spring-peeper]

We take no lectures from heterosexuals. So you can totally fuck off. If you're a lesbian, I'll debate it with you. Otherwise not.

Do you always ask people about their sexual preferences prior to discussing things?
How odd!!!

Are all drag queens gay?

 

[Leighsw2]

Do you always ask people about their sexual preferences prior to discussing things?
How odd!!!

Are all drag queens gay?

Yes I do, because I take no lectures about anything regarding sexuality from any heterosexual! Perhaps you think that black people should take lectures on race from white people? Of course, they don't need to ask because its very visible.

 

[Leighsw2]

Interesting that you seem rattled by this question. You are a heterosexual, yes?

 

[spring-peeper]

Interesting that you seem rattled by this question. You are a heterosexual, yes?

The question I asked was if all drag queens are gay.

My sexual orientation is not relevant.

 

[killer b]

So straight you could use her as a ruler

 

[spring-peeper]

Yes I do, because I take no lectures about anything regarding sexuality from any heterosexual! Perhaps you think that black people should take lectures on race from white people? Of course, they don't need to ask because its very visible.

Most black people will discuss racism with non-whites.

Most females will discuss abortion with males.

Most Americans will discuss their culture with non-Americans.

etc.

 

[elbows]

Since you mentioned Mary Whitehouse, I'd like to ask what other good internet sources there are for learning much more of the detail about the GLFs action against the Festival of Light back in the day.

So far I've only read the following, and I noticed there were a couple of themes of relevance to drag issues a few on this thread have tried to raise.

Drawing on the gay tradition of camp, GLF developed a new style of political campaigning, "protest as performance", where the claim for human rights was projected through creativity, using imagination, daring and wit, rather than marches and rallies.[4] These actions were called "zaps", intended to reduce the rallies to a farcical shambles.[5] The Festival of Light was the most notable of these. One of those who embraced this style of activism was Bette Bourne, the message of gay liberation being couched in comedy, song, tap routines and make-up.[5] "We were finding a new way of doing drag that wasn't offensive to women, that wasn't about false tits and distasteful jokes. We saw ourselves as a new type of man. We could wear frocks and make-up and be silly and funny, but we had a serious message, too." This began a tradition of drag continued through the work of performers like David Hoyle down, a style of drag, separate from the aggressive form of "female impersonation".[5] Another figure who was involved in the disruption was Martin Corbett, who walked into the basement of Westminster Central Hall, ordered the staff to leave with an assumed authority, and plunged the Festival into darkness by disconnecting the electrical and broadcasting cables.[4]

Peter Tatchell described the Festival of Light as being against the "moral darkness" of "pornography, homosexuality and abortion." The GLF counter-protest was code-named "Operation Rupert' after the subversive 'Rupert Bear' cartoon in OZ magazine. He attended the Festival action as part of the GLF Youth Group. "When Malcolm Muggeridge, speaking out about homosexuals, declared: 'I don't like them.' The feeling was mutual,"[2] the group he was part of staged a "kiss-in" in the upper balcony of the hall. "Mice were released into the audience; lesbian couples stood up and passionately embraced. A dozen GLF nuns in immaculate blue and white habits charged the platform shouting gay liberation slogans, and a GLF bishop began preaching an impromptu sermon which urged people to 'keep on sinning.'

The theme known as "radical drag" was a central element to the Festival of Light and subsequent GLF actions. In response to ideas about the 'wrong-sex', gay people distanced themselves from stereotypes of effeminate gay men and butch lesbians, in a way in which gay people were supposed to appear like anybody else. Within the Gay Liberation Movement there was also a deeper questioning of the validity of gender roles. The philosophy underlying radical drag rejected the concepts of masculinity and femininity, which correlated to ideas of dominance and submission. The idea of men who are really women, or of 'real men' dissolves in this deconstruction. In dissociating from the stigma of effeminacy in order to gain acceptance in heterosexual society, gay men tacitly supported the rigidity of gender roles, a definition of men from which they were excluded because of their sexuality. Gay men were complicit in the oppression of the effeminate gay men who adopted that stereotype, often denouncing the camp queens and diesel dykes who had 'come out' and born the brunt of homophobia before those who were more discreet themselves felt comfortable enough to come out. In 1974, to counteract this, the GLF stated that it had developed "a strong section of opinion which claims that the only way for gay people to come out that will make any real impact on the gender role definitions which underlie gay oppression is by adopting a life-style and appearance that explicitly reject the masculine/feminine distinction and all that it implies."

UK Gay Liberation Front 1971 Festival of Light action - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tomorrow if I find the time I will read one of the references linked from that page, which I am linking to below, since I found the subversion of the festival of light event to be hugely inspiring from what I've read so far.

Today in London religious history, 1971: the Gay Liberation Front mash up reactionary christian Festival of Light

“Excuse me, Sister, we’ve heard some homosexuals and radicals are going to try and disrupt our meeting here tonight. Will you pray for them?” The National Festival of Light was founded in 1971. The…

pasttenseblog.wordpress.com

 

[spring-peeper]

So straight you could use her as a ruler

See, there you go making assumptions.

 

[Leighsw2]

...

 

[Leighsw2]

The question I asked was if all drag queens are gay.

My sexual orientation is not relevant.

It seems relevant as you raised the issue about why sexual preference was raised in this discussion. My view, as a gay man, is that heterosexuals - who have persecuted us for 2000 years - have no right to lecture us about our behaviour (in or out of a dress). What's your view, speaking as a heterosexual?

 

[spring-peeper]

Found my answer -no, not all are male.

A drag queen is a person, usually male, who uses drag clothing and makeup to imitate and often exaggerate female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes. In modern times, drag queens are associated with gay men and gay culture, but people of other genders and sexual identities also perform as drag queens.

 

[SpookyFrank]

For a minute there we were all managing to be fairly reasonable about this

I agree with those who have said criticism of drag culture in the context of a far-right attack on same leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Not that there aren't any discussions to be had there, but it should always be solidarity first and ask questions later. This was after all an attack on children as much as anything else.

 

[petee]

these guys project so much its painful to watch, and amazing how many grown men
who spend their time sexualising children

again, please let's not make this a gender-specific thing, the entire little-girl-pageant-queen (think Jon Benet Ramsay) scene, which is objectivizing and sexualizing and inculcating into a reactionary set of relations, isn't the province of men.

 

[spring-peeper]

It seems relevant as you raised the issue about why sexual preference was raised in this discussion. My view, as a gay man, is that heterosexuals - who have persecuted us for 2000 years - have no right to lecture us about our behaviour (in or out of a dress). What's your view, speaking as a heterosexual?

Speaking as a Canadian, I really don't care what your orientation is.

I am more interested in someone's values and behaviour.
Your attitude sucks, and that is not because you are gay.
It is because you are acting like some type of asshole.

 

[Ax^]

again, please let's not make this a gender-specific thing, the entire little-girl-pageant-queen (think Jon Benet Ramsay) scene, which is objectivizing and sexualizing and inculcating into a reactionary set of relations, isn't the province of men.

fair point petee but this lot is similar to the crews that used to run around screaming about "Asian grooming gangs" for the last few years
look into the groups that participated in the campaign and also all had some serious dodgy members you want no where near children in the first place

 

[petee]

fair point petee but this lot is similar to the crews that used to run around screaming about "Asian grooming gangs" for the last few years
look into the groups that participated in the campaign and also all had some serious dodgy members you want no where near children in the first place

oh i agree, but it's not just them, is all i'm saying. it's pretty well distributed.

 

[Leighsw2]

....

 

[Leighsw2]

Speaking as a Canadian, I really don't care what your orientation is.

I am more interested in someone's values and behaviour.
Your attitude sucks, and that is not because you are gay.
It is because you are acting like some type of asshole.

You're a heterosexual (though seem strangely reluctant to admit as much.) You're also interested in de-gaying drag (why?) Apparently, you're also a Canadian (well at least we know something about you!) Am I an 'asshole'? absolutely when it comes to the defence of our community (and also when it comes to offering pleasure to my fellow gay men, but you probably aren't interested in that!)

 

[spring-peeper]

oh i agree, but it's not just them, is all i'm saying. it's pretty well distributed.

Yes, I agree.

imo, the percentage of assholes is pretty much the same, regardless of what group they are.

 

[elbows]

For a minute there we were all managing to be fairly reasonable about this

I agree with those who have said criticism of drag culture in the context of a far-right attack on same leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Not that there aren't any discussions to be had there, but it should always be solidarity first and ask questions later. This was after all an attack on children as much as anything else.

Yes that bad taste and the point raised in #122 are why I have tended to lose my cool when certain threads have been taken in certain directions by the same people over many years here. It wouldnt be accepted here for a moment if it involved other forms of bigotry and playing into the hands of far-right scum, and I become enraged that such solidarity and universal condemnation doesnt happen as a swift default in threads like this one. Maybe it will be different this time, and I certainly intend to avoid making my own rage posts on this thread this time if I possibly can. So hopefully this post is all I have to say about that.

And just to be totally clear, I'm not demanding that exactly the same logic apply to every possible thread that touches on the themes in their broadest sense. But threads that involve a very specific set of events and victims should be different, should not give room for people to take things off in a direction that recasts victims in a different role.

 

[Leighsw2]

Yes, I agree.

imo, the percentage of assholes is pretty much the same, regardless of what group they are.

and there you go with your 'hetrosplaining' again!

 

[spring-peeper]

You're a heterosexual (though seem strangely reluctant to admit as much.) You're also interested in de-gaying drag (why?) Apparently, you're also a Canadian (well at least we know something about you!) Am I an 'asshole'? absolutely when it comes to the defence of our community (and also when it comes to offering pleasure to my fellow gay men, but you probably aren't interested in that!)

You are just looking for a fight, and I'm not playing.

I was curious if all drag queens are male, and you got all huffy.

wiki answered my question.

I should have looked there first instead of asking you.

My apologies for expecting a civil answer from someone who obviously has some type of axe to grind.

 

[petee]

and there you go with your 'hetrosplaining' again!

she wrote in response to me, and she's right.

please tell me which groups are purer, by which i mean conform to your own positions, than others. i'll wait.

 

[Leighsw2]

I've got to sign off now so I can't continue this interesting debate. But, summoning up all the energy and struggles of my gay brothers of the last four centuries, I simply say - "fuck off heterosexuals, you can't tell us how to behave!"

 

[harpo]

Ah fuck. Fact is nobody would care in the slightest if the whole debate hadn't become so toxic.