Drag Queen Story Times picketed by protestors who claim that it grooms children and promotes paedophilia

[Edie]

I think drag like all forms of culture is nuanced and varied. Is it a parody or a tribute for example? Is Lily Savage mocking the women he grew up with or is his whole act a love letter to them? There certainly can be misogyny within drag, but you could say that of all cultural forms, especially ones rooted in heterosexual culture, though they don't seem to cause the same outrage.

Yes, the one thing they all have in common is that they are a male characature of what a woman is.

But that doesn’t answer the question of why gay men parody women.

 

[killer b]

Yeah, I get that, I thought it was a given we all know what's going on with this shower and Edie had moved the talk onto a wider point.

It isn't really a wider point though is it - it's a different point. Some drag queens have fascists chanting that they're paedophiles at their workplaces, and widening the discussion means talking about what's problematic about drag?

There are many things I could take issue with, for example, some black evangelical christian churches teaching on homosexuality, or conservative islamic approaches to women's role in society - things much less ambiguous or arguable than this. Would the right time to raise those things be when their churches and mosques are under attack from fascists, on a thread started to talk about those attacks? I'd get run off the thread.

 

[JimW]

It isn't really a wider point though is it - it's a different point. Some drag queens have fascists chanting that they're paedophiles at their workplaces, and widening the discussion means talking about what's problematic about drag?

There are many things I could take issue with, for example, some black evangelical christian churches teaching on homosexuality, or conservative islamic approaches to women's role in society - things much less ambiguous or arguable than this. Would the right time to raise those things be when their churches and mosques are under attack from fascists, on a thread started to talk about those attacks? I'd get run off the thread.

Fair point.

 

[smokedout]

Yes, the one thing they all have in common is that they are a male characature of what a woman is.

But that doesn’t answer the question of why gay men parody women.

But that's assuming that all drag is intended to be, or comes across as a parody. I don't think that's always the case, I think it is often a tribute, or a celebration of a certain kind of femininity - or even effeminacy - or even just outrageous non-conformity.

 

[smokedout]

It isn't really a wider point though is it - it's a different point. Some drag queens have fascists chanting that they're paedophiles at their workplaces, and widening the discussion means talking about what's problematic about drag?

There are many things I could take issue with, for example, some black evangelical christian churches teaching on homosexuality, or conservative islamic approaches to women's role in society - things much less ambiguous or arguable than this. Would the right time to raise those things be when their churches and mosques are under attack from fascists, on a thread started to talk about those attacks? I'd get run off the thread.

I think this is rooted in how much people now see trans people, drag queens and queer people as 'a debate' rather than living people likely to be harmed by that debate. What happened in Reading is not some abstract online discourse shit.

 

[Edie]

But that's assuming that all drag is intended to be, or comes across as a parody. I don't think that's always the case, I think it is often a tribute, or a celebration of a certain kind of femininity - or even effeminacy - or even just outrageous non-conformity.

A ‘certain kind of femininity’ indeed.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

Yes, the one thing they all have in common is that they are a male characature of what a woman is.

But that doesn’t answer the question of why gay men parody women.

I don't think we all parody women.

I just wrote quite a bit, but reading back it's pretty incoherent...but your posts have been thought provoking. I hope this thread continues to be civil.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

That's one definition of racism but given what happened in Rwanda in the 1990s I suggest others are available

Sorry to derail a little..

I'm not sure I understand this; there was a power differential between the minority Tutsis that had been elevated above the Hutus by the colonial powers...I seem to recall it was a Rev. Speke who decided they Tutsis were the lost tribe of Israel, which was convenient for Britain's divide and rule policies.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry to derail a little..

I'm not sure I understand this; there was a power differential between the minority Tutsis that had been elevated above the Hutus by the colonial powers...I seem to recall it was a Rev. Speke who decided they Tutsis were the lost tribe of Israel, which was convenient for Britain's divide and rule policies.

When was Britain in Rwanda?

 

[Tanya1982]

You're a bit "is this the ten minute argument or the thirty minute." Feels like you're straight back with zingers rather than spotting my point. Maybe it's a shit point or poorly expressed, but I'm not going to find out with you telling me stuff I know addressed to the filler.

No. I didn't approach it as a ten minute argument. I offered my view and explained the context of where I was coming from, and the rest of my involvement followed from there. I had no intention of offering 'zingers' or anything approaching those. Everything I've said, I believe passionately.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

When was Britain in Rwanda?

Plenty of British missionaries, and certainly in other parts of central Africa and the rift valley as the colonial power. There were/are similar tensions outside Rwanda. The Germans were no better than the British.

Rwanda is lovely place, though, and I am very glad I went to the genocide museum in Kigali on one of my trips.

 

[Tanya1982]

No. I didn't approach it as a ten minute argument. I offered my view and explained the context of where I was coming from, and the rest of my involvement followed from there.

No. I didn't approach it as a ten minute argument. I offered my view and explained the context of where I was coming from, and the rest of my involvement followed from there.

What is the difference between fake inflated lips and fake inflated breasts? Both are parodies.

One difference might be that, if talking about the male gaze, men tend to like big tits. They often see that as desirable and appreciate the feature. Big inflated fake lips as part of black face isn't ever done from a place of admiration, however fetishised and warped that appreciative admiration might be.

But like I said this is all esoteric and rhetorical distraction. You are speaking of this subject as if they are established scientific facts, rather than subjective social theory, while telling me simultaneously that what shaped my experiences are irrelevant due to whatever shaped yours being how it all self evidently is.

I've only heard you, given way when I can to establish common ground, provided personal context. In return you've totally dismissed what I've said, and set the confines of the debate you wish to have off the back of a vulnerable group of people who are under considerable and increasingly vicious attack.

 

[Tanya1982]

Well, by that token you were indeed blase in your post about a man dressing in exaggerated markers of a type of feminity.

As above - it's not the same token. It's a different token altogether.

These stereotypical female physical markers under inspection tend to be admired and appreciated, in however warped and conflicted a way. That is not the context for black face, and has never been, even if you are minded towards the most generous interpretation of those performances.

The closest racial equivalent might be the sexualization of black men who are crudely caricatured as dangerously carnal, with exaggerated genitalia. To the extent that black men and boys are basically pathologised by society, law, schooling, everything - on that basis.

But again, this is just distraction. It might be more appropriate and more productive for any anti drag discussion to take place under a heading that doesn't deal with the serious and growingly influential accusations that those individuals are child groomers who promote paedophilia.

What right have any of us to turn that into a barely relevant to and fro about our own wider beliefs?

 

[Tanya1982]

It isn't really a wider point though is it - it's a different point. Some drag queens have fascists chanting that they're paedophiles at their workplaces, and widening the discussion means talking about what's problematic about drag?

There are many things I could take issue with, for example, some black evangelical christian churches teaching on homosexuality, or conservative islamic approaches to women's role in society - things much less ambiguous or arguable than this. Would the right time to raise those things be when their churches and mosques are under attack from fascists, on a thread started to talk about those attacks? I'd get run off the thread.

Yes. That's where I stand. You've said it better.

 

[Cloo]

It's sad to reflect on the whole 'picketing drag queen story time' for me in terms of the fact my oldest is into drag performance as a drag king/'drag thing' and is hoping to get together a performance of peers, having various mates from Tiktok etc who are aspiring performers.

I'm planning to look into small venues that we might hire so 4 or 5 kids could do a show, largely or entirely for family members, probably on an afternoon. The sort of 'protests' mentioned make me worry that if someone got wind of it, they'd be off going 'OMG, look at these kids groomed to do SEX SHOWS by tranny pervs' (when actually it would be entirely done by the kids with support and permission of parents) and trying to Get This Filth Banned or get the venue in trouble. For 4 or 5 kids lip synching, singing and telling some jokes.

 

[Dystopiary]

There are drag kings. Some are very talented, entertaining, and clever - their prominence will come round again, as fashions do - right now it's drag queens. There have also always been lesbians with crew cuts who sit with their legs open - are they misrepresenting men? Are they further entrenching how masculinity is presented to young boys? Or are they just doing what they want to in order to feel most true to themselves in daily life? I'd say definitely the latter.

Are women being parodied or is stereotypically female presentation being parodied? The two aren't the same thing, and the jury is out on which is being parodied. I'm aware of the debate and familiar with it. I think dismantling rigidly enforced gender norms as set and policed by conservative reactionaries is a good and essential too, for the happiness and safety of everyone. People deserve to feel satisfied within themselves, and develop what interests them.

Until I was 15/16 I lived in Soho, so I grew up around quite a few drag performers. One was a regular babysitter for me and my brother. Now and again, we'd be backstage with him - and the others who were getting ready or resting. I never felt belittled or threatened by them. I didn't take anything negative about my gender from them. I don't recall relating to it on that level, and they never pushed that aspect on me. I'm not in favour of performers being censured as a rule.

I don't love drag, and don't watch drag race or any of that stuff, but not because it offends me. It doesn't. I'd just rather watch something else.

Btw, do you mean Soho in London, or New York?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

standard right wing thinking -

enforcing gender norms, asking 6 year olds if they have an (opposite sex) boyfriend / girlfriend yet, telling them they will grow up and get married and have kids - perfectly normal.

letting kids know that alternatives (either for themselves or for other people) exist and are acceptable - 'sexualising' children who are 'too young to think about that sort of thing'

blargh

 

[Orang Utan]

My service is putting on a DWST soon. I think I may have to go along to support

 

[spanglechick]

A lot of drag is gay and queer men and trans women who have often been mocked, bullied and shunned for being femme celebrating that part of themselves. Yes it challenges gender, but in its best form in a way intended to be liberatory. I have seen some drag I have felt was demeaning to women but I've seen far more celebrating strong women - Shea Coulee, a very successful queen from the Ru Paul franchise, describes her drag as "a love letter to black women".

Kids love dressing up and being told a story by an entertainer. If they learn a little bit about self confidence and diversity as well it seems very positive.

Yes, this.

Yes, the one thing they all have in common is that they are a male characature of what a woman is.

But that doesn’t answer the question of why gay men parody women.

I’m not sure that’s the point, parody.


So, if you look at the history of drag, and specifically the regency London “molly houses”, drag seems to have been a deliberate performative exploration of the way society told gay men that they weren’t real men and so must be “sneer” feminine. If you look at drag, the exaggerated curves, the embedded celebration of carrying extra weight, the confrontational dialogue about having sex with men… it’s all about “you tell me I’m not a real man? Fuck you, let me rub this femininity you think I have, right in your face!”

And so yes, it’s a caricature of some of the most in your face parts of being a woman, But “parody” implies mockery. I don’t think women are generally that important to gay men.

The exception is the rich vein of drag, especially uk drag, that celebrates the unbeautiful, working class harridan-type. Lily Savage, Regina Fong, panto dames, and the mainstream, light-ents drag of the two Ronnies, the Pythons and Les Dawson… all driven, uncompromising women created with obvious affection. And paractically the only sex-positive representation of older women in patriarchal entertainment, even now.

 

[spanglechick]

Btw, other than the value of exposing small children to the diversity in society, drag queens are performers. Actors and comedians are almost certainly going to give good story time. I’m awesome at it (no modesty, I ought to be good at something).

 

[Leighsw2]

The point about drag kings is it ignores the power dynamics. A black person being prejudiced is not racism. Racism is systematic discrimination based on historical power differential. The same as misogyny.

Your personal perspective of drag from a liberal childhood in soho is irrelevant. Drag queens sit in the context of a misogynistic society. Their portrayal of womanhood as being vain, bitchy, screeching, with sexualised makeup and pouting, big breasts, figure hugging clothes, must be seen in that context. It’s a man’s misogynistic view of women and I reject it.

Well thank you for your critique of the culture of gay men of last 300 years in this country. I imagine we'll see you outside the library protesting with the rest of the fascists will we? Or perhaps burning down the pantomime? Fuck off with your sanctimonious faux 'feminism'.

 

[Leighsw2]

A ‘certain kind of femininity’ indeed.

View attachment 334792

And now double fuck off!

 

[Edie]

Yes, this.

I’m not sure that’s the point, parody.


So, if you look at the history of drag, and specifically the regency London “molly houses”, drag seems to have been a deliberate performative exploration of the way society told gay men that they weren’t real men and so must be “sneer” feminine. If you look at drag, the exaggerated curves, the embedded celebration of carrying extra weight, the confrontational dialogue about having sex with men… it’s all about “you tell me I’m not a real man? Fuck you, let me rub this femininity you think I have, right in your face!”

And so yes, it’s a caricature of some of the most in your face parts of being a woman, But “parody” implies mockery. I don’t think women are generally that important to gay men.

The exception is the rich vein of drag, especially uk drag, that celebrates the unbeautiful, working class harridan-type. Lily Savage, Regina Fong, panto dames, and the mainstream, light-ents drag of the two Ronnies, the Pythons and Les Dawson… all driven, uncompromising women created with obvious affection. And paractically the only sex-positive representation of older women in patriarchal entertainment, even now.

Yes that’s broadly my understanding about the reason. I mean parody means exaggeration for comic effect, but I agree it has a negative edge to the word (when it tips towards mocking) that might not be intended or implied in drag.

I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad or dangerous thing for kids to be exposed to. But I do think it’s worth examining and challenging. And I think suggesting it’s not political is laughable.

 

[Leighsw2]

Yes that’s broadly my understanding about the reason. I mean parody means exaggeration for comic effect, but I agree it has a negative edge to the word (when it tips towards mocking) that might not be intended or implied in drag.

I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad or dangerous thing for kids to be exposed to. But I do think it’s worth examining and challenging. And I think suggesting it’s not political is laughable.

Excuse me Miss Priss, but our community is facing its biggest threat in 30 years from organised fascism and people planning the genocide of the Trans community. And you're having a meltdown about wigs and 'parody'? Dear god, get a grip!

 

[Sue]

Well thank you for your critique of the culture of gay men of last 300 years in this country. I imagine we'll see you outside the library protesting with the rest of the fascists will we? Or perhaps burning down the pantomime? Fuck off with your sanctimonious faux 'feminism'.

Out of order. Reported.

 

[Edie]

Well thank you for your critique of the culture of gay men of last 300 years in this country. I imagine we'll see you outside the library protesting with the rest of the fascists will we? Or perhaps burning down the pantomime? Fuck off with your sanctimonious faux 'feminism'.

You’re welcome. Gay men are not beyond questioning after all are they.

And now double fuck off!

What’s your problem with this? This is the image of women that drag queens present. These are actual drag queens. Big lips, big tits, big curves, and sexual innuendo. It’s a characature of women. And your there getting offended when an actual woman objects

 

[Leighsw2]

Report all you like dear. I don't mind getting banned from this site to stand up for the culture of our community that is being threatened by fascists and enabled by 'feminists' who have a problem with men in dresses.

 

[Leighsw2]

You’re welcome. Gay men are not beyond questioning after all are they.


What’s your problem with this? This is the image of women that drag queens present. These are actual drag queens. Big lips, big tits, big curves, and sexual innuendo. It’s a characature of women. And your there getting offended when an actual woman objects

We take no lectures from heterosexuals. So you can totally fuck off. If you're a lesbian, I'll debate it with you. Otherwise not.

 

[Edie]

We take no lectures from heterosexuals. So you can totally fuck off. If you're a lesbian, I'll debate it with you. Otherwise not.

I’m bisexual. Where do we stand

Also, your patronising misogyny is on show to Sue there.

 

[smokedout]

What’s your problem with this? This is the image of women that drag queens present. These are actual drag queens. Big lips, big tits, big curves, and sexual innuendo. It’s a characature of women. And your there getting offended when an actual woman objects

One of them is bright pink and bald, how is that a charicature of women? If anything that photo shows how diverse presentation can be in drag, and that's just one very commercial strand of drag culture.