Drag Queen Story Times picketed by protestors who claim that it grooms children and promotes paedophilia

[Edie]

There are drag kings. Some are very talented, entertaining, and clever - their prominence will come round again, as fashions do - right now it's drag queens. There have also always been lesbians with crew cuts who sit with their legs open - are they misrepresenting men? Are they further entrenching how masculinity is presented to young boys? Or are they just doing what they want to in order to feel most true to themselves in daily life? I'd say definitely the latter.

Are women being parodied or is stereotypically female presentation being parodied? The two aren't the same thing, and the jury is out on which is being parodied. I'm aware of the debate and familiar with it. I think dismantling rigidly enforced gender norms as set and policed by conservative reactionaries is a good and essential too, for the happiness and safety of everyone. People deserve to feel satisfied within themselves, and develop what interests them.

Until I was 15/16 I lived in Soho, so I grew up around quite a few drag performers. One was a regular babysitter for me and my brother. Now and again, we'd be backstage with him - and the others who were getting ready or resting. I never felt belittled or threatened by them. I didn't take anything negative about my gender from them. I don't recall relating to it on that level, and they never pushed that aspect on me. I'm not in favour of performers being censured as a rule.

I don't love drag, and don't watch drag race or any of that stuff, but not because it offends me. It doesn't. I'd just rather watch something else.

The point about drag kings is it ignores the power dynamics. A black person being prejudiced is not racism. Racism is systematic discrimination based on historical power differential. The same as misogyny.

Your personal perspective of drag from a liberal childhood in soho is irrelevant. Drag queens sit in the context of a misogynistic society. Their portrayal of womanhood as being vain, bitchy, screeching, with sexualised makeup and pouting, big breasts, figure hugging clothes, must be seen in that context. It’s a man’s misogynistic view of women and I reject it.

 

[Pickman's model]

The point about drag kings is it ignores the power dynamics. A black person being prejudiced is not racism. Racism is systematic discrimination based on historical power differential. The same as misogyny.

Your personal perspective of drag from a liberal childhood in soho is irrelevant. Drag queens sit in the context of a misogynistic society. Their portrayal of womanhood as being vain, bitchy, screeching, with sexualised makeup and pouting, big breasts, figure hugging clothes, must be seen in that context. It’s a man’s misogynistic view of women and I reject it.

That's one definition of racism but given what happened in Rwanda in the 1990s I suggest others are available

 

[clicker]

When mine was a toddler we enjoyed library story times. I remember a woman who deliberately dressed up ott....Mrs Sparkles ( or something)...wig, big hat, wand.
We'd have had no problem going to watch a man dressed up, it wouldn't have crossed my mind to object. We loved panto, isn't that similar?
I'd have just viewed it as a performer performing. It was story telling for children , how can that be wrong?
Personally I wouldn't go out of my way to watch an adult drag show, but if that's what he does in the evenings for a living, so be it.
It just seems a really weird place to stage a protest.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Gets kids into the libraries that are still open!! What’s not to like

No different to (creepy) david Walliams, Tom hardy or anyone else for that matter reading kids stories on the BBC

Just an entertaining, memorable character in a glittery flamboyant outfit reading stories

I presume all the parents sucking their teeth at this have their kids social media access locked down tighter than U-Boat porthole

This is nowt more than filthy right wing culture war action. Fomenting division between groups that should have a common cause and have each other’s backs

The protesters are the danger here

if as a parent you think this is in some way going to overly influence your child in any negative way you should probably audit your parenting skills/plan

FFS I was plonked, terrified and screaming on a red robed, fat, white bearded man’s lap in a debenhams every December for the first 5 years of my life.

Solidarity and a United front is what’s required for society not this shit

 

[Tanya1982]

The point about drag kings is it ignores the power dynamics. A black person being prejudiced is not racism. Racism is systematic discrimination based on historical power differential. The same as misogyny.

Your personal perspective of drag from a liberal childhood in soho is irrelevant. Drag queens sit in the context of a misogynistic society. Their portrayal of womanhood as being vain, bitchy, screeching, with sexualised makeup and pouting, big breasts, figure hugging clothes, must be seen in that context. It’s a man’s misogynistic view of women and I reject it.

The only point here is that it doesn't "groom children" or "promote paedophilia". The rest is just rhetoric - whether your personal experience or mine. My experience is no more or less relevant than yours. The charge, about this being used as a Trojan horse to achieve the sexualization of children, is hateful prejudice in action. And I reject that.

 

[killer b]

The political aspect of this is about the key role drag has played in gay culture and gay emancipation surely - that's why parents want to take their kids to be read to by a drag queen, and the reason why fascists are picketing them. There's a conversation to be had about whether drag reinforces people's concepts of gender and the like, but the fascists don't give a shit about it.

 

[smokedout]

The point about drag kings is it ignores the power dynamics. A black person being prejudiced is not racism. Racism is systematic discrimination based on historical power differential. The same as misogyny.

Your personal perspective of drag from a liberal childhood in soho is irrelevant. Drag queens sit in the context of a misogynistic society. Their portrayal of womanhood as being vain, bitchy, screeching, with sexualised makeup and pouting, big breasts, figure hugging clothes, must be seen in that context. It’s a man’s misogynistic view of women and I reject it.

Drag Queens also sit in the context of a homophobic society which has also violently suppressed femininity in men. You're missing a pretty big piece of the picture if you don't acknowledge that.

 

[JimW]

I think that's very tenuous. There's an inherent characteristic about race - skin colour, eye shape (notably with 'yellow face'), lips (notably with 'black face') that simply doesn't apply to heels and make up. There's an irony in saying you reject gender stereotypes, only to find a man prancing about in stilettos and false eyelashes to be an affront to women.

It's the stereotypes, not the external markers - it's not the dressing up per se, but that it's done to then perform stereotypes as perceived from outside, however closely observed. It's also ironic that a social movement sensitive to these sort of difficulties in almost every other case seems blase in this instance.

 

[Plumdaff]

A lot of drag is gay and queer men and trans women who have often been mocked, bullied and shunned for being femme celebrating that part of themselves. Yes it challenges gender, but in its best form in a way intended to be liberatory. I have seen some drag I have felt was demeaning to women but I've seen far more celebrating strong women - Shea Coulee, a very successful queen from the Ru Paul franchise, describes her drag as "a love letter to black women".

Kids love dressing up and being told a story by an entertainer. If they learn a little bit about self confidence and diversity as well it seems very positive.

 

[Edie]

It's the stereotypes, not the external markers - it's not the dressing up per se, but that it's done to then perform stereotypes as perceived from outside, however closely observed. It's also ironic that a social movement sensitive to these sort of difficulties in almost every other case seems blase in this instance.

Exactly this.

Plumdaff is Shea Coulee a man or a woman? I thought drag queens were men?

 

[Plumdaff]

Exactly this.

Plumdaff is Shea Coulee a man or a woman? I thought drag queens were men?

Drag Queens are usually referred to as she when in drag persona, and unless I'm aware that they use other pronouns or am referring to the person outside of drag, I (and most people who follow queens) follow that convention.

Jaren Marell outside of drag uses they so I'd use that if I ever ran in to them on the street.

 

[JimW]

Should probably add that of course these protestors are scum and if there was an DQST event down my local library and they needed counters to make sure these twats were kept well away and the kids heard their story and never knew, I'd be there.

 

[Tanya1982]

It's the stereotypes, not the external markers - it's not the dressing up per se, but that it's done to then perform stereotypes as perceived from outside, however closely observed. It's also ironic that a social movement sensitive to these sort of difficulties in almost every other case seems blase in this instance.

But who is blasé?

This is just rhetoric. Everybody is pointing at the drag queens, holding them up as indicative of moral bankruptcy and patriarchal oppression. As night follows day, those who currently find it expedient to ignore where this criticism is coming from will find themselves on the receiving end of the same, just as soon as the drag queens have been shunned into retirement, drummed out of public spaces, and separated off from others who just want to live their own life. Once everyone is divided up and at each other's throats, they can be picked off more easily.

At that point, those currently OK about their fellow travellers in this being drawn from those who actually believe that LGBT people are some organized grooming mob who endanger young children and want to recruit minors, will find themselves with nobody to back them up. Anyone that would've done so will have been dealt with already. How you personally feel about drag is not relevant to the fact that the charge of grooming and paedophilia is wrong - worse than wrong, it's rank prejudice with a tried and tested history, being utilized by dangerous groups and individuals.

The distraction is the point. Despite the title of this very thread, few are outraged enough to simply stand against that, but many are outraged enough to get into quite esoteric stuff about gender and racial politics, with the result that everyone is riled up, people's own experiences are being invalidated no matter how tentatively they're put across, and everyone has forgotten that the point is that LGBT people are once again being accused of being an inherent danger to children and families, with drag queens as the face of this latest iteration of an old moral panic.

 

[killer b]

It's also ironic that a social movement sensitive to these sort of difficulties in almost every other case seems blase in this instance.

I don't think it's actually people being blase tbh - it's because of how entangled drag is in gay culture. It's been the most visible - and one of the most reviled - aspect of it for as long as there's been gay culture. And in this case, the criticisms being levelled against drag are explicitly about it being part of gay culture, and linking it - and gays - with paedophilia. If that results in a bit of a brittle response, who can really be surprised?

 

[JimW]

But who is blasé?....

It's hard to engage when you say my post is just rhetoric then spout paras of boilerplate as if I don't know who these cunts are.

 

[JimW]

I don't think it's actually people being blase tbh - it's because of how entangled drag is in gay culture. It's been the most visible - and one of the most reviled - aspect of it for as long as there's been gay culture. And in this case, the criticisms being levelled against drag are explicitly about it being part of gay culture, and linking it - and gays - with paedophilia. If that results in a bit of a brittle response, who can really be surprised?

Yeah, I get that, I thought it was a given we all know what's going on with this shower and Edie had moved the talk onto a wider point.

 

[Tanya1982]

It's hard to engage when you say my post is just rhetoric then spout paras of boilerplate as if I don't know who these cunts are.

I didn't say your post was just rhetoric. I said it all was, including mine. It's irrelevant to the actual topic of conversation. There's a fair bit of boilerplate - mine, yours, other people's, the person telling me that my perspective isn't relevant but theirs is self evident. I didn't use that word against you, I used it for most of this discussion.

The only relevant thing is whether LGBT people are a danger to children, as the thread title sets out. Whether someone feels personally affronted by a male performer wearing fake tits is no more relevant than me saying that I generally don't feel affronted by it. I do reject the idea that there are clear parallels with depictions of race.

 

[JimW]

I didn't say your post was just rhetoric. I said it all was, including mine. It's irrelevant to the actual topic of conversation.

Apologies then;, I had assumed since it was a given that these poisonous clowns need stopping ASAP the conversation had got more esoteric.

 

[maomao]

Jaren Marell outside of drag uses they so I'd use that if I ever ran in to them on the street.

If you ran into them on the street you'd almost certainly use 'you'. It's often considered rude to use third person pronouns to refer to people in their presence.

 

[Orang Utan]

When I was a kid, I was made to feel like a freak of nature - for how I looked, for how I behaved, for expressing interest in things other ‘normal’ people weren’t interested in - everyone around me, parents included, made it very clear that I should be more normal. I grew up with low self esteem and a defiance that was expressed in unhelpful ways. If one adult, who looked and behaved differently to other adults had read out a story to me that broadcasted a message that celebrated and promoted difference and diversity, I would have been delighted, and braver and more ready to face an until-then cruel and shallow world. If just one kid takes succour and solace and feels more confident and comfortable in the world after attending a drag queen story time, then it will have been worth it.

 

[Tanya1982]

It's the stereotypes, not the external markers - it's not the dressing up per se, but that it's done to then perform stereotypes as perceived from outside, however closely observed. It's also ironic that a social movement sensitive to these sort of difficulties in almost every other case seems blase in this instance.

No, sometimes it is the external markers. A white performer with fake inflated lips painted up to resemble the worst caricatures of a black person is offensive in and of itself, regardless of what they go on to say or do.

 

[Tanya1982]

Apologies then;, I had assumed since it was a given that these poisonous clowns need stopping ASAP the conversation had got more esoteric.

I don't think it is a given. It may be to you and to me, but that's just us.

 

[Edie]

I didn't say your post was just rhetoric. I said it all was, including mine. It's irrelevant to the actual topic of conversation. There's a fair bit of boilerplate - mine, yours, other people's, the person telling me that my perspective isn't relevant but theirs is self evident. I didn't use that word against you, I used it for most of this discussion.

The only relevant thing is whether LGBT people are a danger to children, as the thread title sets out. Whether someone feels personally affronted by a male performer wearing fake tits is no more relevant than me saying that I generally don't feel affronted by it. I do reject the idea that there are clear parallels with depictions of race.

I think it’s valid to question drag and it’s relationship to misogyny, even if you recognise that drag queens aren’t paedophiles. The debate has widened to consider this issue.

 

[JimW]

No, sometimes it is the external markers. A white performer with fake inflated lips painted up to resemble the worst caricatures of a black person is offensive in and of itself, regardless of what they go on to say or do.

Well, by that token you were indeed blase in your post about a man dressing in exaggerated markers of a type of feminity.

 

[Edie]

No, sometimes it is the external markers. A white performer with fake inflated lips painted up to resemble the worst caricatures of a black person is offensive in and of itself, regardless of what they go on to say or do.

What is the difference between fake inflated lips and fake inflated breasts? Both are parodies.

 

[JimW]

I don't think it is a given. It may be to you and to me, but that's just us.

You're a bit "is this the ten minute argument or the thirty minute." Feels like you're straight back with zingers rather than spotting my point. Maybe it's a shit point or poorly expressed, but I'm not going to find out with you telling me stuff I know addressed to the filler.

 

[Edie]

Drag Queens also sit in the context of a homophobic society which has also violently suppressed femininity in men. You're missing a pretty big piece of the picture if you don't acknowledge that.

I accept that. What is your understanding of drag? Mine is that it is a male defence against the defamation of being called effeminate. A taking ownership of it, and a fuck you exaggeration of it.

Which I can kind of get behind, until I think about it further and just come up once again to the ‘male view’ of what a woman is. And it’s not pretty.

 

[Plumdaff]

If you ran into them on the street you'd almost certainly use 'you'. It's often considered rude to use third person pronouns to refer to people in their presence.

I had a logic and grammar fail!

 

[smokedout]

I accept that. What is your understanding of drag? Mine is that it is a male defence against the defamation of being called effeminate. A taking ownership of it, and a fuck you exaggeration of it.

Which I can kind of get behind, until I think about it further and just come up once again to the ‘male view’ of what a woman is. And it’s not pretty.

I think drag like all forms of culture is nuanced and varied. Is it a parody or a tribute for example? Is Lily Savage mocking the women he grew up with or is his whole act a love letter to them? There certainly can be misogyny within drag, but you could say that of all cultural forms, especially ones rooted in heterosexual culture, though they don't seem to cause the same outrage.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

FFS I was plonked, terrified and screaming on a red robed, fat, white bearded man’s lap in a debenhams every December for the first 5 years of my life.

Solidarity and a United front is what’s required for society not this shit

put on an iron shirt, chase santa out of earth...