Drag Queen Story Times picketed by protestors who claim that it grooms children and promotes paedophilia

[beesonthewhatnow]

Anyone thinking 6 year olds aren’t aware of and thinking about gender norms, needs to go look in their local toy shop.

 

[bemused]

No-one's kids think very deeply about gender norms: but they're bombarded every day with information about what a girl or a boy is, and how a girl or a boy should act or dress or behave, and gender norms - without any conscious thinking about the topic necessary - are formed in their little heads. The explicit purpose of this event is to challenge this bombardment of information - whether it does this or not is clearly debatable, but what isn't really debatable is that people form ideas about gender very early in their lives. If you want to challenge those ideas, then getting to them young is probably a good idea. That's why the fascists don't like it.

That's reasonable, when our kids were young we emphasised being kind to people - one of the few things they'd get a telling off for was not being kind. Apart from that, they were pretty free range. Most kids of that age are rather lovely and nice, it's the bullshit they are poisoned with in their later life that turns some into assholes.

 

[frogwoman]

I remember seeing Danny La Rue in Mr Bean episodes from when I was a kid. It went over my head at the time but he (I don't know pronouns sorry) was just shown as a slightly stuck up entertainer iirc.

 

[8ball]

DQST don't keep their reasoning a secret:

"The aim of DQST is to capture the imagination and fun of the gender fluidity of childhood, while giving children a glamorous, positive, and unabashedly queer role model. DQST provides spaces in which kids are able to see people who defy rigid gender restrictions and allow them to imagine a world in which people can present as they wish."

Not sure how dressing up as Gruffalo or whatever would achieve those things...

The Gruffalo would capture the species and fantasy-creature fluidity of childhood.

Gender should be easy enough after that.

 

[Sue]

Used to be mates with one of the reddest of red blooded straight men who would put on a skirt every time he'd had a few drinks. There's nothing wrong with it.

Sure. I don't think anyone here is saying there's anything wrong with it.

 

[frogwoman]

Sure. I don't think anyone here is saying there's anything wrong with it.

Theres quite a few people on here saying it's a parody of women, is intrinsically misogynistic etc. Maybe I've misunderstood them?

 

[Funky_monks]

I don't think it's intended as a 'parody of women' at all tho.

Perhaps that is more an indicator of the amount that mysogyny pervades society than anything else.

That cis men can dress as a caricature of women and perform an act that plays to mysogynistic tropes and not consider themselves as doing anything offensive to women whatsoever means perhaps that the idea that this might be offensive hasn't even dawned on them.

 

[killer b]

That's reasonable, when our kids were young we emphasised being kind to people - one of the few things they'd get a telling off for was not being kind. Apart from that, they were pretty free range. Most kids of that age are rather lovely and nice, it's the bullshit they are poisoned with in their later life that turns some into assholes.

people are poisoned with bullshit from the cradle is the issue

 

[belboid]

Perhaps that is more an indicator of the amount that mysogyny pervades society than anything else.

That cis men can dress as a caricature of women and perform an act that plays to mysogynistic tropes and not consider themselves as doing anything offensive to women whatsoever means perhaps that the idea that this might be offensive hasn't even dawned on them.

Or perhaps you have an over simplified view of what drag artists actually do

 

[Thora]

Used to be mates with one of the reddest of red blooded straight men who would put on a skirt every time he'd had a few drinks. There's nothing wrong with it.

Is that being a drag queen though

 

[frogwoman]

Perhaps that is more an indicator of the amount that mysogyny pervades society than anything else.

That cis men can dress as a caricature of women and perform an act that plays to mysogynistic tropes and not consider themselves as doing anything offensive to women whatsoever means perhaps that the idea that this might be offensive hasn't even dawned on them.

.

 

[frogwoman]

Is that being a drag queen though

No it's not, I was just saying. Dressing up in feminine coded clothes isn't bad.

 

[8ball]

I said my kids, I don't speak for other people's kids.

A friend of mine was trying to bring up her daughter in a fairly gender-neutral kind of way and was pretty shocked that almost from the age of speaking fluently, gender was very important to her.

Eg. not wanting to wear something because “that’s for boys” etc.

I think kids have a drive for finding their place and the majority of them are actually very conformist.

Which maybe things like this could help, in terms of how things go for those kids who are less good at “fitting in”.

 

[Sue]

I don't think it's intended as a 'parody of women' at all tho.

It might not be intended but what if people (ie women) perceive it as such?

 

[frogwoman]

It might not be intended but what if people (ie women) perceive it as such?

What if they do?

I don't perceive it as that. Pretty sure what I perceive the relentless attacks on these performers as though.

 

[Thora]

No it's not, I was just saying. Dressing up in feminine coded clothes isn't bad.

No of course not. Men dressing in feminine coded clothes is gender non-conforming.
But a performance of/as a hyper-feminine woman caricature (whether you think that is good or bad) seems to me to be about conforming to a gender role.

 

[cesare]

No it's not, I was just saying. Dressing up in feminine coded clothes isn't bad.

There must be something that differentiates cross-dressing with parody, perhaps? NB I don't find drag offensive generally and I don't perceive it as parody. But there are certainly some very unpleasant characters in that sphere or aligned to it, especially in the influencer world it seems to me.

 

[Funky_monks]

Theres quite a few people on here saying it's a parody of women, is intrinsically misogynistic etc. Maybe I've misunderstood them?

No, we are talking about drag.

Drag is not just "putting on a skirt".
Drag is a stage act whereby a cis man dresses up as a caricature of a woman and performs an (often "comedic") routine.

No problem with men wearing "women's" clothes whatsoever, in fact, I think those clothing norms need challenging. Fully supportive of schoolboys wanting to wear "girls" uniforms etc. Fully supportive of trans people. This is not that, hence my "Black and white minstrels" analogy, which, apparently was also considered unoffensive enough to be considered prime time family entertainment on the BBC at one point.

 

[frogwoman]

There must be something that differentiates cross-dressing with parody, perhaps? NB I don't find drag offensive generally and I don't perceive it as parody. But there are certainly some very unpleasant characters in that sphere or aligned to it, especially in the influencer world it seems to me.

Yeah i totally agree. There's a difference between that and seeing all drag as offensive though.

 

[8ball]

There must be something that differentiates cross-dressing with parody, perhaps? NB I don't find drag offensive generally and I don't perceive it as parody.

Maybe this is where the notion of “camp” and how male gay culture incorporated some elements of feminity can lead to conflation.

Drag queens could be thought of as a case of shifting the “camp” slider up to 11.

(See also Polari)

 

[cesare]

Yeah i totally agree. There's a difference between that and seeing all drag as offensive though.

Not all performances and performers are benign - but that's true across the performing boards

 

[smmudge]

Explain why cis men parodying women by dressing up as a highly exaggerated caricature of one and then performing an act that plays heavily on exaggerated female stereotypes is dissimilar?

I don't need to explain that because you're not describing (most) drag

Drag is not the same as being trans.

Wow thanks for the mansplaining, fuck.

 

[Raheem]

No of course not. Men dressing in feminine coded clothes is gender non-conforming.
But a performance of/as a hyper-feminine woman caricature (whether you think that is good or bad) seems to me to be about conforming to a gender role.

Drag isn't caricature, a least if it is done well. Drag artists are aiming for a sort of accuracy, albeit it can be hard to achieve. It just isn't a send-up of women.

 

[bemused]

A friend of mine was trying to bring up her daughter in a fairly gender-neutral kind of way and was pretty shocked that almost from the age of speaking fluently, gender was very important to her.

Eg. not wanting to wear something because “that’s for boys” etc.

I think kids have a drive for finding their place and the majority of them are actually very conformist.

Which maybe things like this could help, in terms of how things go for those kids who are less good at “fitting in”.

Oh yeah, we saw that when they were little they all went to judo, same sports clubs etc, my son wore a Pocahontas uniform for about a year because he wanted to be an Indian and had a very mixed group of friends. From primary school onwards they really wanted to conform, which made me a little sad.

 

[cesare]

Maybe this is where the notion of “camp” and how male gay culture incorporated some elements of feminity can lead to conflation.

Drag queens could be thought of as a case of shifting the “camp” slider up to 11.

(See also Polari)

That's a good point. I haven't seen as many complaints about degrees of campness though. Do you think it's camp plus feminine coded dress and makeup that = parody in some people's view?

 

[Thora]

Drag isn't caricature, a least if it is done well. Drag artists are aiming for a sort of accuracy, albeit it can be hard to achieve. It just isn't a send-up of women.

If it's accuracy then it's even more gender-conforming then.

 

[Raheem]

If it's accuracy then it's even more gender-conforming then.

Er, OK.

 

[8ball]

Wow thanks for the mansplaining, fuck.

There really needs to be a gender icon against user names so that men can know when they are mansplaining.

(though tbf I don’t know why FM tacked that onto the end of his post)

 

[mojo pixy]

Drag isn't caricature, a least if it is done well. Drag artists are aiming for a sort of accuracy, albeit it can be hard to achieve. It just isn't a send-up of women.

No, in fact I'd say no drag I've ever seen was a send up of women, drag is almost always a send up of men. The drag costume, as much as anything, is a shield against reprisals.

 

[8ball]

That's a good point. I haven't seen as many complaints about degrees of campness though. Do you think it's camp plus feminine coded dress and makeup that = parody in some people's view?

I think there might be an element of that. Just wanted to suggest it as a possibility.

Also, in terms of who the little gay boys grew up idolising (as was mentioned earlier), gay culture has hardly been totally free of misogyny over the years, so there is stuff to tease apart.

And not all drag is the same, as several posters have said.