Drag Queen Story Times picketed by protestors who claim that it grooms children and promotes paedophilia

[Orang Utan]

Drag events are a bit of an acquired taste, but don't offend me in the least. I don't get this argument coming from straight people when the entire society is horribly sexist. Why not complain about...oh idk almost every other book/tv show/song in the last 5000 years

Aye, what about beauty pageants with made up 10 year olds in stilettos n shit like that?
Encouraging children to wear things that restrict their ability to enjoy their childhood and do stuff like run around and climb trees is surely more pernicious than someone in fancy dress reading a story

 

[frogwoman]

Or some of the stuff that's come out recently about some of the England players told that girls cant play football after about 11

 

[frogwoman]

Straight people can wind their necks in with the pearl clutching about sexism imo

 

[8ball]

My point is that the majority of straight culture, books, movies and yes fairy tales etc, is completely saturated with sexism against women and patriarchal viewpoints, so as a straight person to suddenly start crying yourself to sleep about sexist stereotypes in drag shows is a little odd

I can’t be sure how much of the last 5,000 years of culture the straight person under discussion has been responsible for, but if Shakespeare is in the room he’s def not allowed to chunter about anything.

 

[Orang Utan]

My point is that the majority of straight culture, books, movies and yes fairy tales etc, is completely saturated with sexism against women and patriarchal viewpoints, so as a straight person to suddenly start crying yourself to sleep about sexist stereotypes in drag shows is a little odd

It’s not just that as well. Fairy tales are well dark - so much torture and murder! Esp when you read up on their purpose in some cases - to normalise horrific things and prepare children to endure them - eg Beauty & The Beast was written/distributed to expressly prepare young aristocratic girls for the very real possibility of them being forced to marry a hideous old man who needs a young bride to continue his bloodline

 

[8ball]

Or some of the stuff that's come out recently about some of the England players told that girls cant play football after about 11

I hadn’t heard that. What do they mean “can’t”?

 

[frogwoman]

Yep and stories like Bluebeard etc

 

[Funky_monks]

My point is that the majority of straight culture, books, movies and yes fairy tales etc, is completely saturated with sexism against women and patriarchal viewpoints, so as a straight person to suddenly start crying yourself to sleep about sexist stereotypes in drag shows is a little odd

Mysogyny is not the preserve of straight men is it?

Gay men can certainly also be mysogynistic, as per straight men. They can also not be mysogynistic (as per straight men). Gay and straight men can both benefit from a patriarchal society.

 

[frogwoman]

I hadn’t heard that. What do they mean “can’t”?

The little lionesses and their battle to play with the BOYS

All-time leading goalscorer Ellen White was banned from playing football with boys aged nine while Jill Scott had to listen to rival parents call for her to be kicked down because she was 'only a girl'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Lionesses star was banned from playing in local league aged 9 for being a girl

She's made quite a turnaround since that early setback.

metro.co.uk

 

[frogwoman]

Mysogyny is not the preserve of straight men is it?

Gay men can certainly also be mysogynistic, as per straight men. They can also not be mysogynistic (as per straight men). Gay and straight men can both benefit from a patriarchal society.

My point is that most literature, plays, films, that are produced by and for straight people reproduce patriarchal assumptions, not that all straight men are sexist or that no gay men are. And until that addressed, they can stop the pearl clutching. There are definitely issues with drag (the presenter of that drag race programme has been accused of transphobic comments for instance) but it just looks odd that this is the one thing people choose to complain about. I'm not particularly having a go at you, just saying

 

[8ball]

The little lionesses and their battle to play with the BOYS

All-time leading goalscorer Ellen White was banned from playing football with boys aged nine while Jill Scott had to listen to rival parents call for her to be kicked down because she was 'only a girl'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Lionesses star was banned from playing in local league aged 9 for being a girl

She's made quite a turnaround since that early setback.

metro.co.uk

None of that is defensible, obv, but I do remember when I was in school (well before these women were), there was a lot of paranoia and fuss (a lot of it coming from parents), about how to sort the changing facilities when they had one girl who was really good at football a year below me, so that bit rings true rather than just being an excuse they made up.

They figured out the arrangements in the end. I think there was a bit of sexism going on too though.

 

[frogwoman]

None of that is defensible, obv, but I do remember when I was in school (well before these women were), there was a lot of paranoia and fuss (a lot of it coming from parents), about how to sort the changing facilities when they had one girl who was really good at football a year below me, so that bit rings true rather than just being an excuse they made up.

They figured out the arrangements in the end.

Oh yeah I'm sure some of it was 'well meant'

 

[Funky_monks]

My point is that most literature, plays, films, that are produced by and for straight people reproduce patriarchal assumptions, not that all straight men are sexist or that no gay men are. And until that addressed, they can stop the pearl clutching. There are definitely issues with drag (the presenter of that programme has been accused of transphobic comments for instance) but it just looks odd that this is the one thing people choose to complain about. I'm not particularly having a go at you, just saying

How is it "pearl clutching" to object to the objectification of women?
It's not "pearl clutching" when people object to straight men doing it, so why should it be so when it's gay men (although not all drag queens are gay) are doing it?
Yes, there's a tradition of drag, but there are also many other traditions that involve men being misogynistic - why make an exception for drag?

 

[8ball]

Oh yeah I'm sure some of it was 'well meant'

I got the impression there were all manner of febrile imaginings of why one girl might want to get into a room full of boys, and also about the boys’ subsequent behaviour.

 

[frogwoman]

How is it "pearl clutching" to object to the objectification of women?
It's not "pearl clutching" when people object to straight men doing it, so why should it be so when it's gay men (although not all drag queens are gay) are doing it?
Yes, there's a tradition of drag, but there are also many other traditions that involve men being misogynistic - why make an exception for drag?

I don't consider it misogynistic honestly, I don't like a lot of drag acts because I find over the top voices irritating not because I'm offended by it I don't think theres anything intrinsically offensive about men dressing up in women's clothes tbh

 

[Orang Utan]

How is it "pearl clutching" to object to the objectification of women?
It's not "pearl clutching" when people object to straight men doing it, so why should it be so when it's gay men (although not all drag queens are gay) are doing it?
Yes, there's a tradition of drag, but there are also many other traditions that involve men being misogynistic - why make an exception for drag?

Cos fascists are encroaching on these arguments to legitimise their hatred and putting people in very real danger. Let’s fight that battle right now and have that discussion at a time when the atmosphere is a safer place to have it

 

[8ball]

I don't consider it misogynistic honestly, I don't like a lot of drag acts because I find over the top voices irritating not because I'm offended by it I don't think theres anything intrinsically offensive about men dressing up in women's clothes tbh

Anatomical differences aside, it’s interesting (and very culturally specific) which clothes women are meant to wear as opposed to men.

 

[Funky_monks]

None of that is defensible, obv, but I do remember when I was in school (well before these women were), there was a lot of paranoia and fuss (a lot of it coming from parents), about how to sort the changing facilities when they had one girl who was really good at football a year below me, so that bit rings true rather than just being an excuse they made up.

They figured out the arrangements in the end. I think there was a bit of sexism going on too though.

From my experience football parents (especially dads) can be fucking awful, so to me it's horrific but not surprising.
Hopefully the recent win might help, but football in general has all kinds of issues that are going to take time and effort to sort.

 

[Orang Utan]

I got the impression there were all manner of febrile imaginings of why one girl might want to get into a room full of boys, and also about the boys’ subsequent behaviour.

The people who make those kind of comments betray more of what’s going through their own heads and their own desires than it does about the actual situation

 

[Funky_monks]

Cos fascists are encroaching on these arguments to legitimise their hatred and putting people in very real danger. Let’s fight that battle right now and have that discussion at a time when the atmosphere is a safer place to have it

They aren't - see my earlier post.

The Fascists are attempting to somehow sexualise drag, which is something else entirely. Fascists are misogynistic by default, so I suspect that the notion that drag is misogynistic wouldn't be something they'd even notice.

 

[Orang Utan]

They aren't - see my earlier post.

The Fascists are attempting to somehow sexualise drag, which is something else entirely. Fascists are misogynistic by default, so I suspect that the notion that drag is misogynistic wouldn't be something they'd even notice.

And yet they make these arguments anyway

 

[frogwoman]

I like drag and cabaret, when it's done well it can be very funny? But a lot of the time it's crap. I've not really noticed any misogyny but admittedly I've not been to many drag events and dont watch drag races. I'm anxious because the LGBT community is under attack and people want to say well actually this event is bad because of something else? These protesters don't care about women or objectification etc, they want to intimidate someone they perceive as gay or trans and its taking place in an increasingly hostile atmosphere. Sorry but I find that a bigger threat than someone wearing a silly costume and talking in a stupid voice

 

[8ball]

Cos fascists are encroaching on these arguments to legitimise their hatred and putting people in very real danger. Let’s fight that battle right now and have that discussion at a time when the atmosphere is a safer place to have it

I think one thing that needs to be factored in is that there have been incidents in the US where performers had not had all the vetting checks done (obv when something is starting in an ad hoc manner some of the dotting of i’s and crossing of t’s can get missed).

I understand that is not the case in any of the coming UK story times, but things like this are motivating some of the fears, and the facts need to be clear in the media since a lot of what I’ve seen seems to gloss over this, and I think that makes it a little more understandable when non politically extreme parents read things on the internet and then get drawn to the elements organising things like protests.

 

[Funky_monks]

Anatomical differences aside, it’s interesting (and very culturally specific) which clothes women are meant to wear as opposed to men.

I think it's interesting, and also that women wearing "mens" clothing has been widely accepted since at least ww2.
Absolutely, men and boys should be able to wear "womens" clothing if they so choose, but that is not what drag is. There is a whole lot more to it than the clothing drag acts choose to wear - in fact, they don't really dress like women at all really.

 

[frogwoman]

They aren't - see my earlier post.

The Fascists are attempting to somehow sexualise drag, which is something else entirely. Fascists are misogynistic by default, so I suspect that the notion that drag is misogynistic wouldn't be something they'd even notice.

No they will basically use anything even if they don't honestly agree with it, it's like the national front in france pretending to be pro gay to have a go at the Muslim community.

 

[Funky_monks]

And yet they make these arguments anyway

They don't make any arguments (that I've heard) about the misogyny of drag.

 

[8ball]

The people who make those kind of comments betray more of what’s going through their own heads and their own desires than it does about the actual situation

The parents at the time were, to be fair, born during a period where the preceding generation (their parents) did not have access to reliable contraception, and where a lot of sexual stuff was shrouded in fear due to the effects a single dalliance could have on the rest of your life, and the generation following them had only known a world after the sexual revolution, so I can understand how it all must have been a bit weird and tricky to negotiate.

 

[frogwoman]

I think one thing that needs to be factored in is that there have been incidents in the US where performers had not had all the vetting checks done (obv when something is starting in an ad hoc manner some of the dotting of i’s and crossing of t’s can get missed).

I understand that is not the case in any of the coming UK story times, but things like this are motivating some of the fears, and the facts need to be clear in the media since a lot of what I’ve seen seems to gloss over this, and I think that makes it a little more understandable when non politically extreme parents read things on the internet.

Its possible but I don't think that the protesters at these events are 'non politically extreme parents' many have been involved in anti vaxxer activism for instance. I do think you could be right in terms of some reactions to it but not all

 

[8ball]

Its possible but I don't think that the protesters at these events are 'non politically extreme parents' many have been involved in anti vaxxer activism for instance. I do think you could be right in terms of some reactions to it but not all

Yeah, I don’t mean they’re at the protests; those people are more extreme. I’m thinking of people who might say something in an opinion poll, take a stance on the internet, or just provide some moral backing to extreme elements.

Just providing the extremists with the sense that the bulk of regular schmoes are on their side.

 

[smmudge]

But these are men, cis men. They are not female, they have no idea what it is like to be a woman in society. Just because certain homophobes use femininity as a reason to mock them (when they are not), it does not make reacting to that by then choosing to parody mysogynistic stereotypes of women any less mysogynistic. They are choosing to parody women as a reaction to this, to punch downwards and to show that men, even gay men can mock and ridicule women in society and not only get away with it, but be celebrated for it.

You know nothing about drag, or you're basing your entire opinion of it on the most niche and worst sort of drag (panto)?? You're not describing drag.

Not saying there is never misogyny or other phobia in drag, sure there is, but I've seen them called out and people listen and things change.

Try to think of it less as parody and more homage and celebration. Who do you think the little gay boys grow up idolising?