Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[elbows]

There are many things we can plainly see that are indeed nothing to do with being paranoid. But it is when trying to construct an explanation that makes sense and neatly explains a range of things including our own feelings about how the world is going, that paranoia gets a huge opportunity to interfere with proceedings.

Discussions couched in terms such as fascism are far from immune from this, and its a term best saved for relatively pure examples of it breaking out in a particular time and place.

 

[panpete]

There are many things we can plainly see that are indeed nothing to do with being paranoid. But it is when trying to construct an explanation that makes sense and neatly explains a range of things including our own feelings about how the world is going, that paranoia gets a huge opportunity to interfere with proceedings.

Discussions couched in terms such as fascism are far from immune from this, and its a term best saved for relatively pure examples of it breaking out in a particular time and place.

Authoritarianism. The coming of a police state, surveillance, removal of human rights, removal of employment rights, punitive penalties for minor infractions, threats of removal of legal representation, withdrawal of legal aid, I could go on.
I'm glad that I am awake.
The world is becoming more anti human. The gap between rich and poor is widening. More people's lives are being f*cked up by debt.
however, on the other hand: I agree with what you say
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/24/the-trump-phenomenon-this-is-getting-serious/
Trump (Brecht’s “Arturo Ui” comes more to mind), home grown, trumpeting today Harrisburg, tomorrow the world! Yet Trump is less important than the American people, who, thirsting for strong leadership, pathetic in their wallowing in contrived fear, brought on by decades of gut redbaiting and subliminally-wrought and manipulative anticommunism, place him on a political-ideological pedestal tokening authoritarian submissiveness. America, not Trump himself, is the primary explanation for his standing.

 

[panpete]

.

 

[elbows]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/24/the-trump-phenomenon-this-is-getting-serious/
Trump (Brecht’s “Arturo Ui” comes more to mind), home grown, trumpeting today Harrisburg, tomorrow the world! Yet Trump is less important than the American people, who, thirsting for strong leadership, pathetic in their wallowing in contrived fear, brought on by decades of gut redbaiting and subliminally-wrought and manipulative anticommunism, place him on a political-ideological pedestal tokening authoritarian submissiveness. America, not Trump himself, is the primary explanation for his standing.

That article has the cheek to quote from a NYT piece that, when read as a whole, casts quite a different tone eventually.

Trump is doing way better than expected, but look at the actual context of his triumphs even now:

The unusual character of Mr. Trump’s coalition by no means guarantees his campaign will survive until next year’s primaries, let alone beyond. The diversity of his coalition could even be its undoing, if his previous support for liberal policies and donations to Democrats, for example, undermine his support among conservatives. And in the end, the polling suggests, Mr. Trump will run into a wall: Most Republicans do not support his candidacy and seem unlikely ever to do so. Even now, more say they definitely would not vote for him than say they support him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/u...mp-wont-fold-polls-and-people-speak.html?_r=0

You can't start condemning the US voters en masse when the predictions don't even show him winning enough Republicans over.

 

[elbows]

Authoritarianism. The coming of a police state, surveillance, removal of human rights, removal of employment rights, punitive penalties for minor infractions, threats of removal of legal representation, withdrawal of legal aid, I could go on.
I'm glad that I am awake.
The world is becoming more anti human. The gap between rich and poor is widening. More people's lives are being f*cked up by debt.

Doesn't matter how many truths that contains, it still ends up in the paranoid style because it's utterly one-sided and because of some of the phrases used.

The world is becoming more anti-human is a good example for a start. Whats in the basket of things used to measure that? Why am I left to assume that improvements over decades in areas such as child mortality and female education not included? And by the same token is the human rights index missing the great progress in some countries regarding same-sex marriage, gender fluidity, equal age of consent etc.

No, don't leave these sorts of things out or paranoia will surely feast and then do a big shit all over the narrative. No denial of all the horrors that are happening is required either, just balance where its due.

 

[panpete]

I don't know what to make of trump.
I know that some in his own party don't like him.
He is getting a big following though, whether that be a flash in the pan or not, remains to be seen and I wouldn't like to say.
Anti-human is just my own word, to describe how harsh the government have become.
Money is being put before people.
War, gap between rich and poor, harsh cuts, harsh prison sentences and profiting from prisons, (in the us).
I don't understand what you mean by one sided.
I acknowledge that things regarding sex and gender have become more acceptable, but things like healthcare, is it paranoid to fear that we will have to pay for it privately in future? I don't know.
What about cuts? the ILF, bedroom tax, sanctions?
They are all real.

I'm not saying I am right i'm just wondering.
Things like surveillance.
The way workers are treated, zero hour contracts, fake jobs, etc
In america it's worse, and I know that many americans would not want a future that trump is offering, I just wondered if he was a 'taster' to make extreme views more acceptable.
I also learnt that Trump paid democrats in the past and now is presenting himself as republican.

I think Trump wants more of this.

I don't know what you think of chunkymark but here is a vid

 

[frogwoman]

Thats standard market capitalism and the end of the postwar settlement.

If this country was fascist, we'd know. Things are shit but there's a long way to go before it's even approaching somewhere like Turkey.

 

[elbows]

I just wondered if he was a 'taster' to make extreme views more acceptable.

But there isn't a single controlling force that decides to unleash the likes of Trump as a taster.

It's far messier than that. He exists now because Trump the person has decided to do this and not to tone down his outrageous comments. And there has always been a base of people who would like the sorts of messages he sends.

Whats changed, if anything, is that general cynicism about politicians and systems has grown, and there is often a lack of mainstream candidates that appeal to enough people that the support for 'maverick' candidates diminishes to levels of near irrelevance. It happens that the Republicans who feel somehow disenfranchised by 'political correctness' have been somewhat organised at times this century, via things like the Tea Party and right-wing media like Fox News.

But its impossible to get too worked up about that at this stage because the extra-hideous wings of the Republican party are often pretty visible, its not just a recent thing. Just one crap example off the top of my head - You can go back to the 80's and find Frank Zappa making an album that was often concerned with keeping scary 'Christian' fundamentalist nutters out of the Whitehouse.

 

[panpete]

I definitely agree that our country is in a better position than others and maybe my word choice of fascist was wrong.
While I believe that our government is much more harsh than it was, I don't believe we are anywhere near as unfortunate as many nations on this earth.
I wonder, though, if faceless corporations have more of a influence in politics than we may think?
These corporations are what I mean by single controlling force.
Trump has got extreme ideas about the military, they may not go down well in these times, but maybe this single controlling force has wheeled out trump to give us a taste of what is to come even if trump becomes a flash in the pan and a distant memory?
I'm just exploring ideas really.
As we are constantly being lied to anything could happen with Trump, I have been reading more about him this evening and it just opened up a lot of questions.

I'm not really that well versed in the terminology of politics, so apologies for that.
We can also have communist dictators like north korea for example, so both extremes can be as harmful as each other, but people are being treated harsher than they were in lots of ways and I think the UK and the US are moving in a bit of a sinister direction which might take a long time or a shorter time. I don't know how to word it better than that.

 

[weltweit]

First trump has to win the support of the republicans to run on their ticket, or has to decide to run as an independent. Then he has to beat the winner of the democrat race Clinton or a-another. While he is presently polling well, so was Farage our own outspoken one and look what little impact Farage's party actually had after FPTP had on his support. Trump has a long way to go before he gets his hands on any real political power, he still might decide to sit it out and buy influence as he has done in the past.

 

[phildwyer]

If this country was fascist, we'd know. Things are shit but there's a long way to go before it's even approaching somewhere like Turkey.

Turkey's hardly fascist. Erdogan's a bastard, but he was democratically elected, three times. What are you on about?

 

[panpete]

First trump has to win the support of the republicans to run on their ticket, or has to decide to run as an independent. Then he has to beat the winner of the democrat race Clinton or a-another. While he is presently polling well, so was Farage our own outspoken one and look what little impact Farage's party actually had after FPTP had on his support. Trump has a long way to go before he gets his hands on any real political power, he still might decide to sit it out and buy influence as he has done in the past.

It's interesting that Farage also was high in the UK polls, I never knew that. He ended up never having that much of an impact after the election, and that trump might not have much of an impact on american politics, but UKIP did manage to get an MP in parliament this time, how many next time?
A little ukip plant has started growing. (I'm not a ukip voter) Only a small marker as well, but a definite one.
I was also just reading about the republicans not liking Trump and also that he has put a 'stain' on the party, and maybe, he will fade into oblivion, but might he also leave a small, but definite marker

 

[frogwoman]

Turkey's hardly fascist. Erdogan's a bastard, but he was democratically elected, three times. What are you on about?

I know its not fascist! thats my point.
I'm saying that the UK has a long way to go before we get to be as authoritarian as erdogans govt (which is itself nowhere near fascism) let alone a fascist state.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't think one can deny that fascism is appearing more and more. Immmigration issues, health care, welfare, freedom of speech, human rights.

Again, this is using the term "fascist" so loosely as to rob it of all meaning.

Fascism isn't necessarily racist, and it's generally in favor of state welfare.

 

[panpete]

I know its not fascist! thats my point.
I'm saying that the UK has a long way to go before we get to be as authoritarian as erdogans govt let alone a fascist state.

I don't know much about Turkey, but I agree we have a very long way to go before living in the UK gets as bad as some other countries, but I am wondering, what direction are we heading?
And, could Trump be possibly a personification of what lays ahead, however far ahead that may be.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't know much about Turkey, but I agree we have a very long way to go before living in the UK gets as bad as some other countries, but I am wondering, what direction are we heading?
And, could Trump be possibly a personification of what lays ahead, however far ahead that may be.

Things can be bad enough without being fascist or ever approaching fascism.

 

[phildwyer]

I know its not fascist! thats my point.
I'm saying that the UK has a long way to go before we get to be as authoritarian as erdogans govt (which is itself nowhere near fascism) let alone a fascist state.

Right you are then.

The main thing the UK still has over Turkey is the fact that political corruption is still frowned upon in Britain. It's more or less accepted in Turkey that those in power will seek to enrich themselves and their friends/family/allies.

 

[panpete]

Again, this is using the term "fascist" so loosely as to rob it of all meaning.

Fascism isn't necessarily racist, and it's generally in favor of state welfare.

Sorry my bad, my understanding of political terminology needs to be expanded a bit, I kinda know what I want to say, but used the wrong choice of words.
I think I am alluding to the general direction we are headed

 

[frogwoman]

Right you are then.

The main thing the UK still has over Turkey is the fact that political corruption is still frowned upon in Britain. It's more or less accepted in Turkey that those in power will seek to enrich themselves and their friends/family/allies.

that goes on in the UK too, its just hidden.

 

[panpete]

Things can be bad enough without being fascist or ever approaching fascism.

North Korea, communism

 

[phildwyer]

Sorry my bad, my understanding of political terminology needs to be expanded a bit, I kinda know what I want to say, but used the wrong choice of words.
I think I am alluding to the general direction we are headed

Aye. I think "fascist" is often used these days just to mean "very very bad." I hear Daesh described as "fascist" all the time, but that's only true in the sense that they're very, very bad.

 

[frogwoman]

Aye. I think "fascist" is often used these days just to mean "very very bad." I hear Daesh described as "fascist" all the time, but that's only true in the sense that they're very, very bad.

Daesh aren't fascist either. Thats kind of the point of them.

 

[phildwyer]

that goes on in the UK too, its just hidden.

Exactly my point--it's not hidden in Turkey. It's expected.

 

[two sheds]

Right you are then.

The main thing the UK still has over Turkey is the fact that political corruption is still frowned upon in Britain. It's more or less accepted in Turkey that those in power will seek to enrich themselves and their friends/family/allies.

I'm not sure about that with 200 MPs having (I understand, and for example) financial interests in nationalizing the NHS and wehey the NHS is being nationalized.

That and political funding clearly leading to political favours when the party comes to power and I'd say rather that political corruption is ignored in Britain.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fascism isn't necessarily racist.

Hmmm. I think it is in effect always racist as its particular brand of 'blood and the soil' indicates one group over any other as that to whom the land belongs. I don't know of any form of fascism that doesn't stress this kind of geography-based nationalism, and, crucially, does so with some kind of reference to the past as its justification. Do you have a counter-example?

 

[frogwoman]

Aye. I think "fascist" is often used these days just to mean "very very bad." I hear Daesh described as "fascist" all the time, but that's only true in the sense that they're very, very bad.

Yeah its bullshit. It trivialises fascism as well as the fact that parliamentary democracy has been responsible for countless deaths - irish potato famine etc - without ever approaching fascism

Theres also the fact that there are systems of government which could be worse than fascism tbh

 

[phildwyer]

Anyway, I don't think Trump has any chance of winning. Too many vested interests oppose him. In fact he might be a sort of good thing if he runs as an independent, since he'll nick loads of right-wing votes.

 

[phildwyer]

Hmmm. I think it is in effect always racist as its particular brand of 'blood and the soil' indicates one group over any other as that to whom the land belongs. I don't know of any form of fascism that doesn't stress this kind of geography-based nationalism, and, crucially, does so with some kind of reference to the past as its justification. Do you have a counter-example?

I'd call it "nationalist" rather than "racist." You might argue that nationalism is inherently racist I suppose. But there's an important difference between Franco and Mussolini (nationalists) and Hitler (racist).

 

[frogwoman]

Fascism always involves racism in some form or other.

 

[panpete]

that goes on in the UK too, its just hidden.

True, and it's starting to emerge out of hiding now.
Again, could this be another indicator of the direction we could be heading further down the line?
I've always been a bit ignorant of world affairs, but I no longer want to be ignorant, or mis-informed, so I try to read and learn.
I can be a "Not in my lifetime" type of person and thank my lucky stars I don't live in north korea or some other totalitarian state but I question if it is creeping in slowly.
Whatever level of corruption, and whether it is overt or covert, is it possible that it can be an early indicator of totalitarianism.
I don't know about Turkey, I've been reading about other stuff, so I can't comment, so if the above post is contradicted by what is happening in Turkey, I apologise.