Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[panpete]

Fascism always involves racism in some form or other.

Could Trumps views on immigration be related to possible future fascism or totalitarianism, or even authoritarianism?

 

[frogwoman]

Fascism is based on the nation state and its expansion as well. Daesh aren't racist, they are explicitly opposed to nationalism, the whole point of them is they claim to be the caliphate of all muslims regardless of race. But nobody could say that their not being fascist is better.

 

[phildwyer]

Could Trumps views on immigration be related to possible future fascism or totalitarianism, or even authoritarianism?

Nah. There are plenty of liberals and even Leftists who oppose immigration to the UK. Opposition to immigration is still considered an extreme position in the USA, but it's hardly fascist/totalitarian/authoritarian per se.

 

[frogwoman]

Exactly my point--it's not hidden in Turkey. It's expected.

Yeah.

That could change in the uk in the future though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd call it "nationalist" rather than "racist." You might argue that nationalism is inherently racist I suppose. But there's an important difference between Franco and Mussolini (nationalists) and Hitler (racist).

Sort of. Mussolini was certainly personally racist, and his policies in Ethiopia demonstrated that. But then so were the architects of the British and French empires.

I know the difference you're making, and it is valid to a point. I wouldn't argue that all nationalisms are racist, but those that set their nations up as superior are, and I would argue that both Franco and Mussolini most certainly did that. Franco was bigoted towards Catalans, Basques and Galicians (yes, despite being from there himself). Such bigotry is functionally very very similar to many forms of racism. Is the cultivation of a sense of cultural superiority among Italians or castellanos so different from the sense of cultural superiority among whites in the USA, or perhaps more aptly, whites in Britain's or France's colonies?

 

[frogwoman]

Sort of. Mussolini was certainly personally racist, and his policies in Ethiopia demonstrated that. But then so were the architects of the British and French empires.

I know the difference you're making, and it is valid to a point. I wouldn't argue that all nationalisms are racist, but those that set their nations up as superior are, and I would argue that both Franco and Mussolini most certainly did that. Franco was bigoted towards Catalans, Basques and Galicians (yes, despite being from there himself). Such bigotry is functionally very very similar to many forms of racism. Is the cultivation of a sense of cultural superiority among Italians or castellanos so different from the sense of cultural superiority among whites in the USA, or perhaps more aptly, whites in Britain's or France's colonies?

Mussolini was definitely racist.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Mussolini was definitely racist.

tbh it's sort of like someone in the BNP saying they're not racist because they're not also active members of Combat 18.

Yes, Hitler was more racist, and his ideology had racism at its very centre, but that doesn't mean others weren't also racist.

 

[phildwyer]

Sort of. Mussolini was certainly personally racist, and his policies in Ethiopia demonstrated that. But then so were the architects of the British and French empires.

I know the difference you're making, and it is valid to a point. I wouldn't argue that all nationalisms are racist, but those that set their nations up as superior are, and I would argue that both Franco and Mussolini most certainly did that. Franco was bigoted towards Catalans, Basques and Galicians (yes, despite being from there himself). Such bigotry is functionally very very similar to many forms of racism. Is the cultivation of a sense of cultural superiority among Italians or castellanos so different from the sense of cultural superiority among whites in the USA, or perhaps more aptly, whites in Britain's or France's colonies?

Pretty much all C19th and early C20th white Europeans were racist by today's standards. I'd argue that any useful definition of fascism would have to focus on militarism--not in the sense of glorifying the military (which virtually all US politicians do) but in the sense of mustering party armies (which is inconceivable in the USA).

 

[panpete]

Aye. I think "fascist" is often used these days just to mean "very very bad." I hear Daesh described as "fascist" all the time, but that's only true in the sense that they're very, very bad.

I guess the media including left wing or alternative media, and other influencing forces like govt may mis-use words deliberately, and I may have been a victim of this in the context of the word 'fascist'

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Pretty much all C19th and early C20th white Europeans were racist by today's standards. I'd argue that any useful definition of fascism would have to focus on militarism--not in the sense of glorifying the military (which virtually all US politicians do) but in the sense of mustering party armies (which is inconceivable in the USA).

Ok, can you give me a counter-example of a fascist movement somewhere that is not racist?

 

[phildwyer]

Ok, can you give me a counter-example of a fascist movement somewhere that is not racist?

The South American dictatorships of the '70s-80s.

 

[panpete]

Nah. There are plenty of liberals and even Leftists who oppose immigration to the UK. Opposition to immigration is still considered an extreme position in the USA, but it's hardly fascist/totalitarian/authoritarian per se.

I know that it isn't actual tyranny, but could it be a sign of it to come someway down the line?

 

[frogwoman]

Daesh/ISIS are opposed to racism, opposed to nationalism, they are an internationalist movement opposed to national borders etc. To an extent so is zionism and even 'white nationalism' i mean come on hitler was fundamentally a german nationalist who hated slavs and would have hated 'white pride world wide'. The demise of nationalism and the fact that these things aren't fascist doesn't mean anything will arise in its place will be a good thing.

The experience of the british empire and the slaughter of thousands while we had 'democracy' at home and the fact that parliamentary democracies will and can take the fist out of the glove at home when it suits, shows that debate around whether something is fascist is unhelpful. As well as the fact that all dissent hasn't been completely smashed, you aren't dead, leaders of trade unions and left wing groups aren't all jailed or dead and you largely are free to criticise the govt in public without getting carted off to a camp at 3am in the morning.

 

[frogwoman]

The South American dictatorships of the '70s-80s.

Theres debate as to whether those were actually fascist though?

 

[agricola]

Nah. There are plenty of liberals and even Leftists who oppose immigration to the UK. Opposition to immigration is still considered an extreme position in the USA, but it's hardly fascist/totalitarian/authoritarian per se.

It isn't an extreme position over there - almost all of the GOP candidates are to varying degrees opposed to illegal immigration, the significance of Trump is that he is actually saying what actions he would take to deal with the issue.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Theres debate as to whether those were actually fascist though?

I'm happy to call Peron a fascist, especially the 1970s version. His wife was overthrown by the military - whether they were also fascist, I don't know. We're back to asking what boxes need to be ticked for the definition to hold. Weirdly, given that many Peronists were disappeared by the military, I'd say that they largely continued the work the Perons had started. The corporatism of Peron is there.

 

[agricola]

Daesh/ISIS are opposed to racism, opposed to nationalism, they are an internationalist movement opposed to national borders etc. To an extent so is zionism and even 'white nationalism' i mean come on hitler was fundamentally a german nationalist who hated slavs and would have hated 'white pride world wide'. The demise of nationalism and the fact that these things aren't fascist doesn't mean anything will arise in its place will be a good thing.

The experience of the british empire and the slaughter of thousands while we had 'democracy' at home and the fact that parliamentary democracies will and can take the fist out of the glove at home when it suits, shows that debate around whether something is fascist is unhelpful. As well as the fact that all dissent hasn't been completely smashed, you aren't dead, leaders of trade unions and left wing groups aren't all jailed or dead and you largely are free to criticise the govt in public without getting carted off to a camp at 3am in the morning.

The thing with Daesh is that unless you match the criteria of what they define as muslim, then you really are on a sticky wicket.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The South American dictatorships of the '70s-80s.

Pinochet was a neo-liberal, monetarist trailblazer. Isn't that a rather different kind of nastiness from fascism?

I don't know much about the Brazilian dictatorship. Maybe they qualify.

 

[frogwoman]

The thing with Daesh is that unless you match the criteria of what they define as muslim, then you really are on a sticky wicket.

Yea but it's not to do with race, they're explicitly opposed to racism and nationalism, theirs is something that anyone could join if they became a muslim then adopted the correct version of islam. They position themselves as a state for all muslims rather than for the German people or the Italian people or whoever. A Jewish convert who went and joined Daesh would be welcomed if they believed the exact things they did but if they had tried to join the SS then barring bureaucratic oversights wouldnt have got very far at all.

There are many similarities with fascism but saying they're fascist doesnt really help towards an understanding of either tbh. Sorry to be pedantic it just annoys me when the word fascist is misused

 

[panpete]

Trump is currently presenting as right-wing.

 

[agricola]

There are many similarities with fascism but saying they're fascist doesnt really help towards an understanding of either tbh. Sorry to be pedantic it just annoys me when the word fascist is misused

This is true, and it is an overused word.

 

[frogwoman]

This is true, and it is an overused word.

It is indeed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Trump appears to be a genuine fuckwit. McCain is also a genuine fuckwit - the kind that struggles to remember whether Spain is a military dictatorship or not. As was Mitt Romney. As were Bush Jnr and Reagan.

You don't have to be a genuine fuckwit to run as a Republican candidate - Nixon wasn't a fuckwit - but being a fuckwit doesn't seem to rule you out. Are there examples of genuine fuckwits running as Democrat candidates? I can't think of any.

 

[frogwoman]

Trump appears to be a genuine fuckwit. McCain is also a genuine fuckwit - the kind that struggles to remember whether Spain is a military dictatorship or not. As was Mitt Romney. As were Bush Jnr and Reagan.

You don't have to be a genuine fuckwit to run as a Republican candidate - Nixon wasn't a fuckwit - but being a fuckwit doesn't seem to rule you out. Are there examples of genuine fuckwits running as Democrat candidates? I can't think of any.

Well nixon was a fuckwit tbh but the extent of it was only discovered fairly late in the day.

 

[phildwyer]

It isn't an extreme position over there - almost all of the GOP candidates are to varying degrees opposed to illegal immigration, the significance of Trump is that he is actually saying what actions he would take to deal with the issue.

It's extreme to oppose all immigration, not just the illegal kind.

 

[mauvais]

Yea but it's not to do with race, they're explicitly opposed to racism and nationalism,

Are they?

Opposed to existing nationalist structures, sure, but so is any good megalomaniac, and the ultimate aim is something resembling a nation state, is it not? It's easy to be anti-nationalist when you're a rebel but not so much if you actually gain control.

I might be wrong, haven't thought about it all that much.

 

[Idris2002]

Daesh/ISIS are opposed to racism, opposed to nationalism, they are an internationalist movement opposed to national borders etc. To an extent so is zionism and even 'white nationalism' i mean come on hitler was fundamentally a german nationalist who hated slavs and would have hated 'white pride world wide'. The demise of nationalism and the fact that these things aren't fascist doesn't mean anything will arise in its place will be a good thing.

The experience of the british empire and the slaughter of thousands while we had 'democracy' at home and the fact that parliamentary democracies will and can take the fist out of the glove at home when it suits, shows that debate around whether something is fascist is unhelpful. As well as the fact that all dissent hasn't been completely smashed, you aren't dead, leaders of trade unions and left wing groups aren't all jailed or dead and you largely are free to criticise the govt in public without getting carted off to a camp at 3am in the morning.

I broadly agree, but at least one witness claimed to have heard Schiklegruber say of the fall of Singapore "if only I could give the British a few divisions to hold back the yellow men". Uh, yeah, boss. . . I, uh, see what you mean there. . . (moves quietly to back of room)

 

[frogwoman]

Are they?

Opposed to existing nationalist structures, sure, but so is any good megalomaniac, and the ultimate aim is something resembling a nation state, is it not? It's easy to be anti-nationalist when you're a rebel but not so much if you actually gain control.

I might be wrong, haven't thought about it all that much.

I agree with you that that's how it could turn turn out, i think the fact that they are ethnically cleansing Kurds in some areas regardless of what their religious practice is shows signs of this. Its social base is also similar to fascism ie shopkeepers and businessmen happy that under Daesh they can leave their doors unlocked at night etc. I also think a lot of them are there to settle old scores with Shias etc rather than a particular ideological commitment to this stuff, but as an organisation they are absolutely anti nationalist. That's the whole point. They think all 1 billion sunni muslims everywhere in the world are a single nation which makes them very different to say old fashioned German or Italian nationalists. Baghdadi made this clear when he called all muslims whoever they are to come and join him and when they destroyed the border of Syria and Iraq. It's supposed to have a worldwide appeal and transcend national borders, which is a problem if you want to describe them as fascist in the strict sense. To Daesh it's not based on racial characteristics, its about what you believe, so you could regard someone in indonesia who believes daesh shit as your 'brother' but think your actual brother deserves to get his head chopped off for being an infidel.

Idris2002 that doesn't surprise me at all, hitler thought the british were the same race as the germans by all accounts and that he'd ended up on the wrong side through an accident of history. anyway yeh sorry ive derailed this thread enough

 

[two sheds]

Hitler - worse than IDS

 

[Idris2002]

Iyou could regard someone in indonesia who believes daesh shit as your 'brother' but think your actual brother deserves to get his head chopped off for being an infidel.

You've met my actual brother, then?