Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[J Ed]

Not the establishment 'Economist'....

Vox is pravda for Hillary, they are literally sponsored by Goldman Sachs, and they do advertorials for their financial products without declaring that sponsorship.

The Hillary bunker has for a while now talked up this idea that the media is somehow anti-Clinton which is just patent nonsense. Even this article shows why the idea of a totally lopsided election isn't set in stone or a function of a way in which the media distorts things.

She is, after all, the most disliked national politician in American life ... except Donald Trump.

 

[Casually Red]

I don't know why you think Trump is some paragon of virtue. The rest of it is just basic lefty shoot-them-in-the-back.

I've never, even remotely, suggested such a thing . That's complete nonsense . All I've said is he's less evil than Hilary Clinton . Your doing straw man shit .

 

[Casually Red]

Yes and no. He's given them a shock, and self-evidently he's not (or not been - we'll see how quickly he's co-opted...) part of the core GOP party elite, but that doesn't make him the outsider or the breath of fresh air he'd like to appear. For all the media and campaign froth about this being something new/different, there's some history of Trump-esque 'non-political background' types putting themselves forward for the job - Henry Ford most famously, but also Wendel Willkie, then a host of others who didn't quite make the party nomination but had a good go at it. You might argue Reagan's political experience had less to do with his success than his longer and better known non-political experience.



These may genuinely be his positions - whether he's remotely capable of achieving anything on any of these fronts is another matter. Obama - a far more astute and capable politician by most standards - has notably failed to achieve anything on some of the similarly bold positions he set out eight years ago.



Or he could be such a spectacular clusterfuck that people yearn for the days of political-establishment rule, which is at least awful in a fairly stable and predictable way.

I share a good deal of your cynicism about Hillary Clinton - but even though you've qualified your description of Trump with some more cautious/negative comments, I think you're still being waaay too optimistic about him as an answer to the problem.

All very reasonable points, and you may well even be correct . The benefit I see in his election though is that if he follows through on his promises of infrastructure creation and repatriation of jobs and wealth , the re establishment of an American manufacturing base etc there will be an actual working class . And out of that real possibilities for working class politics . Under Killary the current policies of globalisation will continue full steam ahead . Not least because her and her rapey partner in crime have been totally bought and paid for to ensure precisely that .

One ..massive..reason for Obamas foreign policy failures , we shouldn't forget, is Hillary Clinton herself . And the slime she has in her entourage . They were at the controls the entire time . If she's elected that's what will be sitting there unfettered by anyone . It's a depressing and terrifying prospect .

Eta

Also thanks for debating this in a civilised manner

 

[Nylock]

...and what if he also enacts the darker aspects of his policy platform? Building a massive border wall, deporting tens of millions of illegal immigrants, kicking off a trade war with China, demanding what amounts to a military tribute from America's allies for America's 'protection' and basically encouraging Japan and South Korea to pursue their own nuclear deterrents?

The American people are without a doubt being presented with a shit sandwich here: on the one hand a proven warmonger and on the other a narcissistic bully with a blase attitude towards further nuclear proliferation in Asia's far east...

(the implosion of the republican party is pretty entertaining though...)

 

[8den]

All very reasonable points, and you may well even be correct . The benefit I see in his election though is that if he follows through on his promises of infrastructure creation and repatriation of jobs and wealth , the re establishment of an American manufacturing base etc there will be an actual working class . And out of that real possibilities for working class politics . Under Killary the current policies of globalisation will continue full steam ahead . Not least because her and her rapey partner in crime have been totally bought and paid for to ensure precisely that .

One ..massive..reason for Obamas foreign policy failures , we shouldn't forget, is Hillary Clinton herself . And the slime she has in her entourage . They were at the controls the entire time . If she's elected that's what will be sitting there unfettered by anyone . It's a depressing and terrifying prospect .

Eta

Also thanks for debating this in a civilised manner

You really believe any of his platforms particularly towards the working poor would be carried through. Particularly coming from someone consistently anti union?

 

[1%er]

The way to beat Trump is to highlight his lack of understanding of the political system and how it differs from Business and to force him to talk about his political policies. Many Americans honestly believe that the world begins and ends in the USA and have little understanding of a larger world view.

Trump is a TV personality and that carries massive weight with many Americans who believe fame is important, he is great at marketing and self promotion, but has no real understanding of politics or how the political system works and firmly believes that what works in business will work in politics, which isn't the case as they have very different objectives.

Business is all about profit, in fact in most countries businesses have a legal obligation to maximize their profits for shareholders and this is what drives the decisions of the board members. Politics on the other hand has to deal with many competing objectives, again many of these have legal obligations, energy provision Vs environmental laws is a good example. As the president and chairman of the Trump Organization he can act as he likes (with-in the law) when it comes to policy and the hiring and firing of staff, as President of the USA he would be limited in this, while he can appoint some senior people, other will need to be vetted and agreed by Congress. In politics there are far more checks, balances and counterbalances than he will ever have come across as the boss of a massive company, will someone who is used to saying "do it my way or else" be able to handle the restrictions imposed on him by the political system. Democracy is about compromise where as business is all about competition.

A good example of Trumps Business over politics philosophy is clear in this and other interviews with the NY Times where he says things like this, when asked about his political appointees "I think about a U.N. ambassador, about a secretary of defense and secretary of treasury, but I think more about winning first, otherwise I’m wasting time. I want people in those jobs who care about winning. The U.N. isn’t doing anything to end the big conflicts in the world, so you need an ambassador who would win by really shaking up the U.N”.

The above quote also highlights his lack of understanding about the power and influence of the UN, the UN doesn't have the power to "end the big conflicts in the world", appointing someone to the UN who can "win" is pointless, what can they win when the UN has no power to change things without the will of sovereign governments, that is extremely clear when one looks at recent history.

As for his plans mentioned in the post above, Building walls, deporting illegals (in some states up to 20% of the work force and 10% in many others), unilaterally scrapping trade deals and the rest, he seems to have forgotten that he is only President not Emperor. His power will be greatly weakened by the bureaucracy, Congress and historical precedent.

His lack of understanding of how the political system works should be clear for all to see and if his opponents stick with this and policy issues he should be finished very quickly, alas I fear they may be dragged down to his level of personality issues and leave the door wide open for him.

(the above while having a pop at Trump shouldn't been seen as support for Clinton, I think they are both as bad as each-other).

 

[Casually Red]

The way to beat Trump is to highlight his lack of understanding of the political system and how it differs from Business and to force him to talk about his political policies. Many Americans honestly believe that the world begins and ends in the USA and have little understanding of a larger world view.

Trump is a TV personality and that carries massive weight with many Americans who believe fame is important, he is great at marketing and self promotion, but has no real understanding of politics or how the political system works and firmly believes that what works in business will work in politics, which isn't the case as they have very different objectives.

Business is all about profit, in fact in most countries businesses have a legal obligation to maximize their profits for shareholders and this is what drives the decisions of the board members. Politics on the other hand has to deal with many competing objectives, again many of these have legal obligations, energy provision Vs environmental laws is a good example. As the president and chairman of the Trump Organization he can act as he likes (with-in the law) when it comes to policy and the hiring and firing of staff, as President of the USA he would be limited in this, while he can appoint some senior people, other will need to be vetted and agreed by Congress. In politics there are far more checks, balances and counterbalances than he will ever have come across as the boss of a massive company, will someone who is used to saying "do it my way or else" be able to handle the restrictions imposed on him by the political system. Democracy is about compromise where as business is all about competition.

A good example of Trumps Business over politics philosophy is clear in this and other interviews with the NY Times where he says things like this, when asked about his political appointees "I think about a U.N. ambassador, about a secretary of defense and secretary of treasury, but I think more about winning first, otherwise I’m wasting time. I want people in those jobs who care about winning. The U.N. isn’t doing anything to end the big conflicts in the world, so you need an ambassador who would win by really shaking up the U.N”.

The above quote also highlights his lack of understanding about the power and influence of the UN, the UN doesn't have the power to "end the big conflicts in the world", appointing someone to the UN who can "win" is pointless, what can they win when the UN has no power to change things without the will of sovereign governments, that is extremely clear when one looks at recent history.

As for his plans mentioned in the post above, Building walls, deporting illegals (in some states up to 20% of the work force and 10% in many others), unilaterally scrapping trade deals and the rest, he seems to have forgotten that he is only President not Emperor. His power will be greatly weakened by the bureaucracy, Congress and historical precedent.

His lack of understanding of how the political system works should be clear for all to see and if his opponents stick with this and policy issues he should be finished very quickly, alas I fear they may be dragged down to his level of personality issues and leave the door wide open for him.

(the above while having a pop at Trump shouldn't been seen as support for Clinton, I think they are both as bad as each-other).

I think Trump will ensure it becomes a personality based slanging match . The guy will say absolutely anything ...anything . I'm quite looking forward to it tbh . And it's just starting

Trump Ramps Up Attacks On Clinton Over Husband's Affairs

 

[DotCommunist]

i think the twilight zone moment was the stuff about ted cruz's dad being in on the JFK assasination. 'Am I actually reading this and its not satire?'. As it came through I remembered early in the contest one of his repub rivals telling him 'you can't insult your way to the whitehouse Donald'. But apparently you can insult your way to the repub nominee at least

 

[Casually Red]

...and what if he also enacts the darker aspects of his policy platform? Building a massive border wall, deporting tens of millions of illegal immigrants, kicking off a trade war with China, demanding what amounts to a military tribute from America's allies for America's 'protection' and basically encouraging Japan and South Korea to pursue their own nuclear deterrents?

The American people are without a doubt being presented with a shit sandwich here: on the one hand a proven warmonger and on the other a narcissistic bully with a blase attitude towards further nuclear proliferation in Asia's far east...

(the implosion of the republican party is pretty entertaining though...)

She's not merely a warmonger, and a genocidist . She's a bought and paid for wall street shill . And quite a bully herself .

I agree it's a shit sandwich . But she's the shittier one by a long shot .

And let's not forget the border wall and anti immigrant stuff were originally Clintons positions that he stole and Trumpified .

 

[billy_bob]

You really believe any of his platforms particularly towards the working poor would be carried through. Particularly coming from someone consistently anti union?

I certainly don't. Taken together with his views on Mexican immigration I think it's obvious it's nothing more than a more rhetorically upfront form of the same racist divide and rule tactics always practiced on the working poor by the ruling elite Casually Red seems so sure Trump is not part of. The powerful never have any intention of making things better for the poor - only of ensuring the blame doesn't come back to them (ie the powerful).

 

[1%er]

I think Trump will ensure it becomes a personality based slanging match . The guy will say absolutely anything ...anything . I'm quite looking forward to it tbh . And it's just starting

Trump Ramps Up Attacks On Clinton Over Husband's Affairs

I'm sure you are right, he will not want to get on to policy. Interesting last week many news reports were claiming "many legal experts believe the investigation will end with the FBI recommending that the Justice Department indict Clinton and that they may produce an interim report before November", it now seems that has turned 180 degrees and she may well not in fact not face any action at all, reading more recent press

Clinton has a problem because she and her old man (guilt by association) have a long record to aim at and is an open goal in many areas.

i think the twilight zone moment was the stuff about ted cruz's dad being in on the JFK assasination.

Yes Trump may need to watch where he stands, its clear that many in the GOP would not shed a tear if he ended up like JFK.

 

[TomUS]

...and what if he also enacts the darker aspects of his policy platform? Building a massive border wall, deporting tens of millions of illegal immigrants, kicking off a trade war with China, demanding what amounts to a military tribute from America's allies for America's 'protection' and basically encouraging Japan and South Korea to pursue their own nuclear deterrents?

The American people are without a doubt being presented with a shit sandwich here: on the one hand a proven warmonger and on the other a narcissistic bully with a blase attitude towards further nuclear proliferation in Asia's far east...

(the implosion of the republican party is pretty entertaining though...)

Dark indeed....His import tariffs & his attitude of making deals to get America's creditors to accept less than full payment could cause a world wide depression. His supreme court appointments (he admires Clarence Thomas) would result in all sorts of anti-mid class & poor stuff & overturning LGBT rights & abortion rights & let's not forget Bush V. Gore 2000. I could see him seizing Mexican oil wells in the Gulf to pay for his wall.

Dems will try to tie him to all Repub candidates, Fed, State & local. Even bombs away McCain who's up for re-election is worried. I'll definitely take a bite out of the Hillary shit sandwich.

 

[Casually Red]

Yes Trump may need to watch where he stands, its clear that many in the GOP would not shed a tear if he ended up like JFK.

I'm unlikely to go into mourning either, for the record .

 

[Casually Red]

I'm sure you are right, he will not want to get on to policy. Interesting last week many news reports were claiming "many legal experts believe the investigation will end with the FBI recommending that the Justice Department indict Clinton and that they may produce an interim report before November", it now seems that has turned 180 degrees and she may well not in fact not face any action at all, reading more recent press

Clinton has a problem because she and her old man (guilt by association) have a long record to aim at and is an open goal in many areas.
Yes Trump may need to watch where he stands, its clear that many in the GOP would not shed a tear if he ended up like JFK.

I think he can concentrate on some policies, particularly foreign policy and her record in that regard . And that he'll do quite nicely out of that . There's a strong anti war and isolationist mood in the US and he can capitalise on it were she doesn't have a hope . It will be a case of American nationalism vs neo liberal globalisation . And the nationalist argument often resonates with more people than the globalised one .

Ultimately it'll boil down to which of them is the most unlikeable, not which of them is more popular . Right now it's Trump ..but not by that much..but he's barely started on Clinton yet . If he plays his cards right he can expose her for what she actually is . A monster, frankly .

 

[Casually Red]

I certainly don't. Taken together with his views on Mexican immigration I think it's obvious it's nothing more than a more rhetorically upfront form of the same racist divide and rule tactics always practiced on the working poor by the ruling elite Casually Red seems so sure Trump is not part of. The powerful never have any intention of making things better for the poor - only of ensuring the blame doesn't come back to them (ie the powerful).

Again I'll have to point out these were originally clintons own positions. And I've never stated billionaire Donald Trump whos schmoozed with the elite for decades isn't part of the US elite. What I've stated is that Clinton is the personification of a global elite . The spokesperson, mouth piece and indeed enforcer of that elite . Owned by Wall street and whoever else pays her handsomely to look after their interests . Trump simply isn't enmeshed in it as thoroughly as she is . He can afford to lob the odd populist stone in that direction. She can't, and indeed daren't . And were she to even try there'd be hilarious laughter all round .

 

[Casually Red]

These may genuinely be his positions - whether he's remotely capable of achieving anything on any of these fronts is another matter. Obama - a far more astute and capable politician by most standards - has notably failed to achieve anything on some of the similarly bold positions he set out eight years ago.


.

This is Trump the Democrat, from years back, when Clinton was still supporting the Iraq war . The guys a prick in many ways but I believe he's genuine on that issue .

Remember that was back in the era of zealous flag waving, " freedom fries " " cheese eating surrender monkeys " and people like the Dixie Chicks and others being publicly crucified for criticising Bush and the war . It was neither popular nor politically or financially advantageous to take that position so publicly back then . So I don't think there's any reasonable grounds on which to doubt him on that .



One of the main reasons Obama failed is because of the power Hilary Clinton wielded , and the agendas she persued .

 

[Casually Red]

.
.



Or he could be such a spectacular clusterfuck that people yearn for the days of political-establishment rule, which is at least awful in a fairly stable and predictable way.

I share a good deal of your cynicism about Hillary Clinton - but even though you've qualified your description of Trump with some more cautious/negative comments, I think you're still being waaay too optimistic about him as an answer to the problem.

The people who've gone before him ..the political establishment..have been spectacular clusterfucks . They've destroyed the middle east , bailed out wall street while presiding over mortgage bubble apocalypses and mass homelessness . Left Ukraine in ruins . Started another cold war . They're totally incompetent , breath takingly incompetent , and highly dangerous . Clintons record is one trail of utter disasters after another .

And nowhere have I ever stated that Trump is or could ever be an answer to the problem . Simply that in my view he's less bad than the alternative . And the common sense positions he's taken on issues such as war and foreign policy , job creation ..and even healthcare to an extent are way to the left of Clinton ..and basic common sense . At least within the context of a capitalist America . That doesn't make him an answer to a problem . Simply less bad than the Clinton alternative .

 

[Casually Red]

Not really. He was against the second Gulf war, but only because he was stupid enough to think that Bush Sr. should have gotten Saddam Hussein when we were there the first time. It would have resulted in the same power vacuum we have now, only sooner.

In fairness though that was an off the cuff comment to howard stern many years ago long prior to ever becoming a politician . Not an actual position he actually held or ever believed in . And much accepted " wisdom " in the early 90s was precisely that , that it was a mistake of bush snr not to have gone in.
Trump has clarified that here , from about 3.50 in

Eta

And in his comments back in 2003 in the other video above .

 

[DotCommunist]

Yes Trump may need to watch where he stands, its clear that many in the GOP would not shed a tear if he ended up like JFK.

I wasn't suggesting that trump avoid dallas and convertables lol, just that he seems to be able to come out with the most mental shit and it doesn't sink him

 

[J Ed]

Looks like Trump is going to run, or at least appear to run, to Clinton's left on some issues while Hillary Clinton runs as a moderate Republican who isn't 'crass'.

 

[J Ed]

Even if Trump loses, and I still think that is by far the most likely scenario barring a significant terrorist attack in the US, one of the real dangers is that the main camp of opposition to establishment neoliberalism in the US will be right-wing nativist populism.

 

[TomUS]

One of the main reasons Obama failed is because of the power Hilary Clinton wielded , and the agendas she persued .

What?????? He was her boss, not vice versa.

 

[agricola]

I wasn't suggesting that trump avoid dallas and convertables lol, just that he seems to be able to come out with the most mental shit and it doesn't sink him

I think that is because his statements are being viewed and compared against a Republican orthodoxy that is, in many cases, just as mental.

Take yesterday's row over his statement that, if the economy tanked, he would try to negotiate down the debt. This was immediately slated by nearly everyone - though its hard to see what the alternative would be in a situation where they were in the mire and owing nineteen trillion dollars, and having to be paid back at a rate of what will soon be five hundred billion dollars a year. Or take his original (in this race anyway) stance on abortion, which was patently absurd - though probably less absurd than one which claimed to see women as victims, whilst also denying them their rights and prosecuting anyone who tried to help them.

How he fares against Hillary will be a different matter, of course.

 

[weltweit]

I thought from the beginning that if it ended up Trump v Clinton she should win on questions of policy and government where Trump has no experience. But we would be stupid to write Trump off, he has already surprised people getting this far already and he is the "less" establishment option.

 

[Casually Red]

I thought from the beginning that if it ended up Trump v Clinton she should win on questions of policy and government where Trump has no experience. But we would be stupid to write Trump off, he has already surprised people getting this far already and he is the "less" establishment option.

The thing is everytime she points to her track record of experience and policy making, Trump can throw back at her that her policies have been disastrous. And her track record consists of little more than a series of massive disasters , sleaze and corruption . Not accomplishments of office .
And also that she's currently under investigation by the FBI . For using a private email server in an attempt to ensure her dealings would not be subject to FOI requests . That type of chicanery coupled with incompetence is hardly a record to be proud of . He can beat her if he goes about it the right way .

I honestly think the democrats were very foolish to endorse this woman . Even should she win she'll be mired in sleaze the entire time. Way too many skeletons . And some of them pretty fresh .

 

[Pugnax]

Even if Trump is the lesser of two evils policy wise (who the fuck knows, he changes his unintelligible views every few minutes), his rhetoric and hate mongering in the short term is dangerous and can't be tolerated.

 

[BandWagon]

Trump will probably do what most politicians do after getting elected: get some experienced people around him and modify all the shit that he spouted.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Perhaps you should think about getting a tribble wig yourself Casually Red?

It might suit you ...

 

[Casually Red]

It doesn't even suit him . I'll pass .

 

[Treacle Toes]

Trump will probably do what most politicians do after getting elected: get some experienced people around him and modify all the shit that he spouted.

Of course he will get some 'experts' around him...the shit will still be around though and modified shit is still shit, just served up on a more decorative plate.