Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[TomUS]

And where did a description of these white racist christians appear in the post from CR?

It didn't. But a large hunk of Trumps followers are that way.

 

[butchersapron]

It didn't. But a large hunk of Trumps followers are that way.

Well just say that then - rather than what you ended up with which was saying that 'people who've lost their jobs and homes due to globalisation and outsourcing' sound like brownshirts.

 

[Casually Red]

Hitler's followers were white racist christians facing unemployment. They saw Germany as humiliated & longed for a strong man to lead them out of the darkness. Here's Trump's populism....opposition to increasing the minimum wage.

Compared to Hillary Clinton, who as US Secretary of State quite aggressively intervened in Haiti ...another country...to stop the government there from raising the minimum wage from 20 odd cents an hour to 60 something cents an hour ?

Did Hillary Clinton's State Department help suppress the minimum wage in Haiti?

I doubt very much Trump has ever stooped that low .

 

[Casually Red]

What? All of them, the people who voted for him were all white racist Christians? Is that a fact?

Including all those Nazi atheists, neo pagans and Odinists I'd imagine .

Trumps racist tropes have mostly been ripped off from Clinton who came up with them in the first place . The only difference is they've been Trumpified for public presentation . it's a style issue, not substance .

 

[Casually Red]

The fucker might actually win this thing . Whether on the left or right the pretty startling popularity of both Trump and Sanders shows the mood in American politics is very much marked by a strong anti establishment backlash . To run Hillary Clinton...the establishment personified...against a figure who's very successfully positioned himself as anti establishment , and so far massively capitalised on that and upset all the odds ..that doesn't strike me as a sure fire winner . Not when that's the prevailing mood in the US .

Up to now Trumps just been a candidate for nomination . But pretty soon hell be the nominee and that's going to add serious weight news wise to EVERY utterance he makes . And without a doubt he can outflank her on the left as regards jobs, NAFTA, Iraq , Libya etc . Probably even on healthcare . On her grubby business practices, all that stuff . And not least as regards her being the face of " them " , the elite . He can genuinely eviscerate her on that stuff .

And at the same time he can really hurt her by basic muck raking . The guy has no rules apparently about going full tabloid , he' ll go way below the belt and say pretty much anything . And when it comes to the Clinton skeletons it gets pretty sordid . All sorts of stuff has been alleged and not all of its totally untrue . Trump will go there, no doubt about it . Go there and beyond . And Clinton will have to engage on it once he's the official nominee , which he's just about to be . And he just needs to hit a few nails partly on the head to do her real damage .

Add to that her own toxicity as a brand . On the one hand you've got a very large number of Sanders supporters who will simply refuse to vote for her no matter what if she's the candidate , a very high percentage . And I'd imagine an awful lot of non aligned people who'd vote against her simply because they can't stand the thought of waking up every morning to her as president . She's so bloody smug and awful .
Plus so far her main campaign message seems to be little more than " I am the proper person, a born expert . We are your betters and know better than you " . At a time when people are sick of that shit, and when trump can justifiably point to a long string of disasters under her watch that proves she's a menace rather than an expert...Trump could actually win .

And Sanders might be the best hope of stopping Trump. I believe he could do that . I'm far from convinced Clinton could .

 

[sleaterkinney]

A lot of people won't want to wake up with Trump for president either.

 

[teqniq]

Lot of very unhappy people in the Republican camp, looks a bit prone to implosion. Couldn't happen to nicer people.

Trump wins the crown but mutiny simmers

 

[8ball]

Plus so far her main campaign message seems to be little more than " I am the proper person, a born expert . We are your betters and know better than you " .

Yeah, there's plenty in your post I don't agree with but I can't disagree with this. That sense of entitlement will be a turn-off to a lot of people.

 

[billy_bob]

She would be way worse I reckon . Trump ..deservedly..got a lot of stick over that Obama birth certificate business . But it's conveniently forgotten that the whole thing was itself started by Clinton when she was running against Obama for the nomination . It was her and her campaign group full of the worst slime balls going that started the whole whispering campaign about it . Trump ran with her racist ball .
Same thing with the border wall . Her and John McCain were shouting for a border fence and telling people not to hire immigrant labour long before Trump ever mentioned a wall .

How many wars have that woman and her entourage been up to their necks in ? Jesus ...she's genocidal .

And as regards palm greasing, Trump has already pointed out that Bill and Hillary attended his wedding , pretty much because he paid them to . He was a big donor to their " foundation " . He's had them in his own pocket . They've danced to his tune for years , for money .

Personally I think Sanders , should he somehow unlikely succeed in getting the Democrat nomination, has a much better chance of beating Trump than Clinton. Not only is the woman heartily disliked among left and right alike , but Trump can damage her in numerous ways that he can't damage Sanders .

But the main way in which she's worse is she's the elite personified . If she wins nothing ...absolutely NOTHING ..changes for the better, that's 100% guaranteed . Trump is at least talking about changing the nature and structure of the US system . Or at least saying it needs changed . He's that unpredictable he might just change something for the better . Something better might come along AFTER him if he changes things, another Sanders type might stand a chance in the future . There's zero hope of that with Clinton . Just more born to rule, we are your betters clones operating the same bought and paid for racket . There's a real possibility Trump could be a spanner in the works .

Eta

He's definitely a fucking spanner .

All valid points as far as Clinton's track record goes. And yet it begs the question of 'better or worse in what sense'. HC would be more of the same - and we can all see plenty wrong with that. But it doesn't follow that a Trump-shaped spanner (/spanner-shaped Trump) will be remotely what's needed to improve matters. And bear in mind that all the Republicans have been since they won back Congress has been a spanner in the works - less has actually been done in terms of government business in this presidential term than any other I know of, because of the GOP's agenda of ceaslessly blocking anything that fellah in the White House wants purely on the 'principle' that he shouldn't have it, with no shred of an alternative on offer other than 'government should do nothing'.

Trump may be a different kind of spanner - less establishment/elite in some senses (although his claims to that are not much more convincing than Farage's to my ears - he just sounds like a regular moron, he's still a billionaire asshole) - but would he be in any way a more positive spanner?

On the other hand, in terms of rhetoric and international positioning, he will no doubt contribute to further tarnishing the US in the way it was under GW (probably putting his administrations to shame in that regard, in fact), in turn emboldening China and Russia - perhaps an inevitable process anyway admittedly but still one in which I'd rather the US, for all it's glaring faults, at least continued to exist - better (just about) the devil you know etc.

 

[Casually Red]

A lot of people won't want to wake up with Trump for president either.

No doubt about that either . But by the time Trumps finished attacking Clinton ...or more precisely the Clintons, as they advertise themselves as a 2 for one package..the percentages on the least awful might be a bit surprising .

 

[sleaterkinney]

No doubt about that either . But by the time Trumps finished attacking Clinton ...or more precisely the Clintons, as they advertise themselves as a 2 for one package..the percentages on the least awful might be a bit surprising .

He needs to look presidential, the tactics that worked on republican voters won't work with the general populace. Clinton has been around for a while, run for senate, if there was serious dirt someone would have brought it up before now.

 

[billy_bob]

He needs to look presidential, the tactics that worked on republican voters won't work with the general populace.

That's a good point - and those tactics have really worked on many republican voters, but really haven't on some others. On the other hand, he's clearly got a wouldn't-vote-for-no-one-else constituency on his side too. So I'd like to see a more detailed psephological analysis, but I'd guess so he's going to have to convince unconvinced republicans that he's capable of representing all of them, but also appeal to the swing voters who if anything are more likely to have been turned off by his style so far.

 

[Casually Red]

All valid points as far as Clinton's track record goes. And yet it begs the question of 'better or worse in what sense'. HC would be more of the same - and we can all see plenty wrong with that. But it doesn't follow that a Trump-shaped spanner (/spanner-shaped Trump) will be remotely what's needed to improve matters. And bear in mind that all the Republicans have been since they won back Congress has been a spanner in the works - less has actually been done in terms of government business in this presidential term than any other I know of, because of the GOP's agenda of ceaslessly blocking anything that fellah in the White House wants purely on the 'principle' that he shouldn't have it, with no shred of an alternative on offer other than 'government should do nothing'.

Trump may be a different kind of spanner - less establishment/elite in some senses (although his claims to that are not much more convincing than Farage's to my ears - he just sounds like a regular moron, he's still a billionaire asshole) - but would he be in any way a more positive spanner?

In a range of ways the guy will be fucking awful . But I think in others he could be better . But as regards establishment, the guy has just completely fucked the entire GOP over . He's wiped out ..completely..the strongest list of candidates they've fielded for years . Absolutely slaughtered them . And although he's got their nomination I still think its a stretch to actually call him a republican . It's more a badge of convenience .
So one elite has just had their asses handed to them . By a guy they ridiculed right to the last moment . One half of the elite has been completely upended as a political force .

On the other hand I think he's genuine about non interventionism and bringing the US military back from abroad . That's very positive in my view . As well as creating jobs , infrastructure projects and the like. Opposition to Nafta. That stuff .

Plus if he wins he's going to be so polarising the Democrats will finally have to accept the likes of the Clintons have had their day and it's time for a Sanders ...a more left populist type...type to be put in to get that fucking asshole out of the white house . I think it's positive in that he could potentially put a serious hole in both elites, and some real change could come out of the chaos he creates . Plus he might potentially do a few positive things when in the white house that will have to be accepted as the right way to go . But also some right shitty stuff too.
He's a hand grenade basically . Yeah, he'll put holes in the right targets but will no doubt inflict collateral damage as well . But there might just be real political change at the end of the day . It's not coming from anywhere else . Except possibly Sanders .

 

[Casually Red]

He needs to look presidential, the tactics that worked on republican voters won't work with the general populace. Clinton has been around for a while, run for senate, if there was serious dirt someone would have brought it up before now.

Part of his appeal..in fact most of it..is that he doesn't . Same goes for Sanders ..in a different but still similar way . " looking presidential " all too often means looking and behaving like the rest of the establishment ? And the prevailing mood is anti establishment . And it's impossible for Trump anyway with the weird hair and tan . He's quite capable of strutting out of the white house wearing a gold headpiece and speedos .

But what he can succeed in doing is making Clinton look even less presidential than him . And this bit of toxic baggage she's been lugging around for years is one way in which he can do it perfectly legitimately and truthfully . As well as one very good reason why even people who can't stand trump should keep her out of the white house at all costs . Because if she wins this toe rag will have very real power and influence . Unconstrained by anybody .

Just Who Is Sidney Blumenthal, the Clintons’ Closest Advisor?

 

[DexterTCN]

...Trump may be a different kind of spanner - less establishment/elite in some senses (although his claims to that are not much more convincing than Farage's to my ears - he just sounds like a regular moron....

This is interesting.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So one elite has just had their asses handed to them . By a guy they ridiculed right to the last moment . One half of the elite has been completely upended as a political force .

On the other hand I think he's genuine about non interventionism and bringing the US military back from abroad . That's very positive in my view . As well as creating jobs , infrastructure projects and the like. Opposition to Nafta. That stuff .

.

Let's not forget here that Trump is part of the elite. And he's given every indication that, at heart, he would work to make the rich even richer in the name of freedom.

As for his foreign 'policy', it's all over the place. All we can know for sure is that he wouldn't do most of what he's threatened he'd do over the months. But he has made horrible noises wrt Iran, Russia and even Cuba. I could see him going down the simpleton 'Evil Empire'/'Axis of Evil' routes of Reagan/Bush jnr. He's dangerous to the world potentially, but then so is Clinton.

 

[J Ed]

This is interesting.

Study: Presidential candidates speak at grade 6 to 8 level

 

[Casually Red]

Let's not forget here that Trump is part of the elite. And he's given every indication that, at heart, he would work to make the rich even richer in the name of freedom.

As for his foreign 'policy', it's all over the place. All we can know for sure is that he wouldn't do most of what he's threatened he'd do over the months. But he has made horrible noises wrt Iran, Russia and even Cuba. I could see him going down the simpleton 'Evil Empire'/'Axis of Evil' routes of Reagan/Bush jnr. He's dangerous to the world potentially, but then so is Clinton.

He's talked consistently about withdrawing the US military from abroad and basing them in the US . He's totally condemned the disasters in Iraq and Libya and even Vietnam...that marks him out as very different from the Trumps and reagans, much less the clintons who have been every bit as bad as their republican counterparts . Worse in some ways .he opposes further meddling in Syria . He's repeatedly said he'd get along with Russia . Every indication is Clinton will continue taking her cue from the same people that have left a trail of destruction and millions dead across the globe . She's a cert for war .
The " evil empire / axis of evil " stuff was largely the work of Robert Kagan . Of Project for a New American century notoriety . Who these days along with his wife Barbara Nuland is in the Clinton camp . They're on the same page when it comes to that stuff , along with McCain and Lindsay Graham . Complete lunatics . All of them..fanatics . Hilary Clinton has proven time and time again she'll have a nation destroyed for absolutely nothing . And has openly laughed about bombing Iran , in the company of the vilest right wing hawks .

Trumps preference for isolationism is much less dangerous in my view . I don't see him as a warmonger at all . A cunt in other ways but not that one .

 

[Casually Red]

I thought this was a good read . Trumps been good value for this alone .

The Day the Republican Party Died

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He's talked consistently about withdrawing the US military from abroad and basing them in the US . He's totally condemned the disasters in Iraq and Libya and even Vietnam...that marks him out as very different from the Trumps and reagans, much less the clintons who have been every bit as bad as their republican counterparts . Worse in some ways .he opposes further meddling in Syria . He's repeatedly said he'd get along with Russia . Every indication is Clinton will continue taking her cue from the same people that have left a trail of destruction and millions dead across the globe . She's a cert for war .
The " evil empire / axis of evil " stuff was largely the work of Robert Kagan . Of Project for a New American century notoriety . Who these days along with his wife Barbara Nuland is in the Clinton camp . They're on the same page when it comes to that stuff , along with McCain and Lindsay Graham . Complete lunatics . All of them..fanatics . Hilary Clinton has proven time and time again she'll have a nation destroyed for absolutely nothing . And has openly laughed about bombing Iran , in the company of the vilest right wing hawks .

Trumps preference for isolationism is much less dangerous in my view . I don't see him as a warmonger at all . A cunt in other ways but not that one .

I'm just not sure I believe his isolationist noises, which have gone side by side with condemning the normalisation of relations with pretty much anybody. He also talks about building up the US military (even bloody more). I'm not sure we can know, or even really guess, what he would really do - as the outsider who didn't have to take a public stand on any of them as they were happening, it's easy for him to condemn disasters in retrospect.

I do agree that Clinton is more of a known quantity, and what we know is not at all good.

 

[Tankus]

Fuuuuck me.....



Just........woah

 

[Casually Red]

 

[J Ed]

Fuck Donald Trump he's an evil sexist, racist, classist bigot who is manipulating people to vote against their best interests and in favour of his own.

I'm for the people who shut down Trump in Chicago, they and people like them are the ones who will be fighting for a better future regardless of whether Clinton or Trump gets in.

 

[Casually Red]

He's infinitely less evil than Hilary Clinton, who's engaged in wilful genocide . Among other things . His racism is lifted directly from her previous political campaigning . As regards sexism he's never yet been caught out boasting and laughing about how he knowingly blackened a 12 year old girl who was kidnapped, horrifically beaten and raped in order to get her attacker off. Successfully . And boasted about it . Or silenced other women who claimed to have been raped . Nor has he ensured the deaths of innocent women and girls in their hundreds of thousands, as Hilary Clinton has done. And will most likely do again .
If Trumps rallies deserve to be closed down, which there's certainly an argument for , then hers deserve it many times over . And the hypocrisy in the failure of the left to do so is pretty glaring .
And as regards someone being out for their own interests and those of their cronies Clinton most definitely tops Trump in that regard . Many times over .

As regards the accusation of classism I fail , completely, to see how that stands against trump who has based his entire campaign around a dispossessed and often unemployed working class . The basis of his entire support is either working class or lower middle class . Compared to Clinton who's message is the ruling class know best and those who support trump are web toed, snaggle toothed hillbillies who just should go back to the trailer park . Because that's been the entire mocking tone of her camp since trump entered the race . And it still hasn't stopped .

None of that is to paint trump as any kind of saviour . But simply to point out that time and time and time again the awfulness of Hilary Clinton gets a completely free ride from so many on the left , and how theres a wilfull blindness to the horrific things she's done and does simply because she's perceived as somehow " left " . She's way more repulsive than Trump . Hands down . Time and again she's proved it . And if she wins she'll carry on proving it . But the same wilfull blindness will remain. Shell carry on getting the by balls. For that reason alone I hope trump stops her and every rotten insidious thing she and her cronies stand for, providing that is Sanders fails to do so .

 

[sleaterkinney]

I don't know why you think Trump is some paragon of virtue. The rest of it is just basic lefty shoot-them-in-the-back.

 

[Treacle Toes]

How the hell is trump basing his campaign around the dispossessed and unemployed working class when his sexism and racism excludes working class men and women of most ethnicities?

 

[krtek a houby]

Trump allegedly raped his ex wife; Ivana but then she retracted the allegation. I don't care for Hilary but I'd rather her than this vile misogynist, racist, elitist billionaire bastard.

 

[newbie]

I don't know why you think Trump is some paragon of virtue.

He's repeatedly said he'd get along with Russia .

 

[butchersapron]

He big strong man too.

 

[billy_bob]

In a range of ways the guy will be fucking awful . But I think in others he could be better . But as regards establishment, the guy has just completely fucked the entire GOP over . He's wiped out ..completely..the strongest list of candidates they've fielded for years . Absolutely slaughtered them . And although he's got their nomination I still think its a stretch to actually call him a republican . It's more a badge of convenience .
So one elite has just had their asses handed to them . By a guy they ridiculed right to the last moment . One half of the elite has been completely upended as a political force .

Yes and no. He's given them a shock, and self-evidently he's not (or not been - we'll see how quickly he's co-opted...) part of the core GOP party elite, but that doesn't make him the outsider or the breath of fresh air he'd like to appear. For all the media and campaign froth about this being something new/different, there's some history of Trump-esque 'non-political background' types putting themselves forward for the job - Henry Ford most famously, but also Wendel Willkie, then a host of others who didn't quite make the party nomination but had a good go at it. You might argue Reagan's political experience had less to do with his success than his longer and better known non-political experience.

On the other hand I think he's genuine about non interventionism and bringing the US military back from abroad . That's very positive in my view . As well as creating jobs , infrastructure projects and the like. Opposition to Nafta. That stuff .

These may genuinely be his positions - whether he's remotely capable of achieving anything on any of these fronts is another matter. Obama - a far more astute and capable politician by most standards - has notably failed to achieve anything on some of the similarly bold positions he set out eight years ago.

Plus if he wins he's going to be so polarising the Democrats will finally have to accept the likes of the Clintons have had their day and it's time for a Sanders ...a more left populist type...type to be put in to get that fucking asshole out of the white house . I think it's positive in that he could potentially put a serious hole in both elites, and some real change could come out of the chaos he creates.

Or he could be such a spectacular clusterfuck that people yearn for the days of political-establishment rule, which is at least awful in a fairly stable and predictable way.

I share a good deal of your cynicism about Hillary Clinton - but even though you've qualified your description of Trump with some more cautious/negative comments, I think you're still being waaay too optimistic about him as an answer to the problem.