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Donald Trump the road that might not lead to the White House - Redux 2024 thread.

Pickman's model said:
seems to be a bit substantiated mind eg China: Police rescue 1,000 cats, bust illicit trade of feline meat, Undercover Investigation: China’s Cat and Dog Meat Trade, China's animal lovers fight illegal cat meat trade, Saving animals from China's dog and cat meat trade, China Bans the Selling of Dog and Cat Meat - there's certainly some eating of cat meat in china
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Some in Guangdong and neighbouring provinces but not in most of the country and not served in Chinese restaurants abroad. Big country.
 
Hopefully at some point in the debate tonight she will do what Sanders was threatening if he got the nomination back in '16 and '20 and that is to openly call him a liar and systematically go through each of the lies that he spouts in the debate challenging him to show the proof.
 
maomao said:
Some in Guangdong and neighbouring provinces but not in most of the country and not served in Chinese restaurants abroad. Big country.
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The urban myth was always that a place was raided by health inspectors and they found half an Alsatian in the freezer. Heard it many times about different places. As if a business owner would think “I need some meat, shall I a) go to the wholesale butcher and buy some; or b) go and stalk and kill someone’s pet at huge personal and reputational risk?”
 
Nylock said:
Sadly, I'm not. These arseholes are getting increasingly desperate now and it shows.
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I don’t think they’re desperate. I think they’re just following the road ahead, taking the next obvious step. As each parcel of extremity gets poured out and only gets a small amount of traction outside their weird bubble, we’re not seeing how normalised this shit is for them. None of them is surprised or doubtful that people from overseas are “eating our pets”.

Desperate implies that there’s some sort of deliberate machination at play when they come up with these absurd stories.


Like that weird story about Wayfair taking orders for children and shipping them out in wardrobes. Remember that? I had to explain to someone that it wasn’t happening because she was genuinely frightened and outraged by it. It was pointless explaining the impossibility of it (where do these children come from, how come no one is reporting their children missing, why are they being so complicated, what happens to the children in transit…). The thing that helped in the end was demonstrating the algorithm to her: we both looked up the same thing, something she chose, and my phone took me to debunking sites and hers took her to doubling down stuff.

It’s called doubling down for a reason: there’s a logarithmic scale, an exponential increase of the bullshit as you go along the story. It’s bizarre to us but it’s the next step that gets them into the necessary state of froth and fury.

It’s the same as needing a bigger more extreme hit of porn or violence when you get accustomed to it.
 
story said:
I don’t think they’re desperate. I think they’re just following the road ahead, taking the next obvious step. As each parcel of extremity gets poured out and only gets a small amount of traction outside their weird bubble, we’re not seeing how normalised this shit is for them. None of them is surprised or doubtful that people from overseas are “eating our pets”.

Desperate implies that there’s some sort of deliberate machination at play when they come up with these absurd stories.


Like that weird story about Wayfair taking orders for children and shipping them out in wardrobes. Remember that? I had to explain to someone that it wasn’t happening because she was genuinely frightened and outraged by it. It was pointless explaining the impossibility of it (where do these children come from, how come no one is reporting their children missing, why are they being so complicated, what happens to the children in transit…). The thing that helped in the end was demonstrating the algorithm to her: we both looked up the same thing, something she chose, and my phone took me to debunking sites and hers took her to doubling down stuff.

It’s called doubling down for a reason: there’s a logarithmic scale, an exponential increase of the bullshit as you go along the story. It’s bizarre to us but it’s the next step that gets them into the necessary state of froth and fury.

It’s the same as needing a bigger more extreme hit of porn or violence when you get accustomed to it.
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I don't disagree with this but, somewhere someone is deliberately sowing these absurd stories to ramp up the froth adding fuel to the 'doubling down' types just, you know, winding them up and watching them go off. These people are not the mindless irrational buffoons that fully buy into this crap and stoke the rage, they are cold, rational actors looking at ways to increase societal turmoil and looking for avenues to exploit to further entrench their power.

Now that there seems to be a counter of sorts (calling it out as 'weird'), the tempo and outlandishness of the stories is increasing. You only need to look at Trump's latest spate of egregious bullshit talking about forced same-day gender reassignments occurring in high school canteens up and down the country and his chorus of idiots reinforcing this to see that there is a definite air of desperation about it all. Reversing this process on a societal scale is going to be challenging but doing what you did, engaging with these people 1-1 in a non-confrontational rational way, is a potential way forward that could bypass large-scale (and therefore easy to invent conspiracy charges against) societal solutions that likely will involve the creation of laws to enforce.
 
I think there are some of those deliberately manipulative people, but fewer than supposed. And much higher up than where these stories begin.

I don’t think Putin’s chums are sitting around brainstorming new bizarre stories. They’ve got bigger fish frying in the bubbling butter.

Some of these stories start as jokes or misheard misunderstandings etc. that get exaggerated. Remember that most peop,e do not have good critical skills. And they’re already primed and pumped to believe this stuff. Pizzagate is a good example.

Alex Jones may be doing it a bit (gay frogs was a kind of exaggerated extended thing, the state actors thing was a kind of logical extension of something he was already saying). I think he’s deliberately dressing shit up, but I also think he genuinely believes some of it.

Listen to Things Fell Apart to be amazed by how some of these wild stores start as little pebbles.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC Radio 4 - Things Fell Apart, S1. Ep 1: 1000 Dolls

Strange tales from the culture wars by Jon Ronson.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
Nylock said:
I don't disagree with this but, somewhere someone is deliberately sowing these absurd stories to ramp up the froth adding fuel to the 'doubling down' types just, you know, winding them up and watching them go off. These people are not the mindless irrational buffoons that fully buy into this crap and stoke the rage, they are cold, rational actors looking at ways to increase societal turmoil and looking for avenues to exploit to further entrench their power.

Now that there seems to be a counter of sorts (calling it out as 'weird'), the tempo and outlandishness of the stories is increasing. You only need to look at Trump's latest spate of egregious bullshit talking about forced same-day gender reassignments occurring in high school canteens up and down the country and his chorus of idiots reinforcing this to see that there is a definite air of desperation about it all. Reversing this process on a societal scale is going to be challenging but doing what you did, engaging with these people 1-1 in a non-confrontational rational way, is a potential way forward that could bypass large-scale (and therefore easy to invent conspiracy charges against) societal solutions that likely will involve the creation of laws to enforce.
Click to expand...


I often don’t try, or start trying and then back off.
Chemtrails: but there are far easier ways to poison us.
Musk is going to shut off the sun : why, though?
To kill us: but then who’s going to mow his lawn?

I try to increase their trust in me on other fronts, and then hopefully the fact that they trust me there and I naysay the bullshit gives them pause. : story is clearly not stupid, and I trust story…. So if story says this is wrong, maybe….?
 
story said:
I don’t think they’re desperate. I think they’re just following the road ahead, taking the next obvious step. As each parcel of extremity gets poured out and only gets a small amount of traction outside their weird bubble, we’re not seeing how normalised this shit is for them. None of them is surprised or doubtful that people from overseas are “eating our pets”.

Desperate implies that there’s some sort of deliberate machination at play when they come up with these absurd stories.


Like that weird story about Wayfair taking orders for children and shipping them out in wardrobes. Remember that? I had to explain to someone that it wasn’t happening because she was genuinely frightened and outraged by it. It was pointless explaining the impossibility of it (where do these children come from, how come no one is reporting their children missing, why are they being so complicated, what happens to the children in transit…). The thing that helped in the end was demonstrating the algorithm to her: we both looked up the same thing, something she chose, and my phone took me to debunking sites and hers took her to doubling down stuff.

It’s called doubling down for a reason: there’s a logarithmic scale, an exponential increase of the bullshit as you go along the story. It’s bizarre to us but it’s the next step that gets them into the necessary state of froth and fury.

It’s the same as needing a bigger more extreme hit of porn or violence when you get accustomed to it.
Click to expand...

I'm starting to wonder if there's an analogous phenomenon to the one where some people are energised by social interactions, vs other people being drained by them. The crazy world of the conspiranoids and Q-MAGAts, with its endless cavalcade of ever-more extreme outrages, sounds fucking exhausting to me. But for some people, it seems to be endlessly engaging. There's a lot of things (real things) happening in this world that are disgusting, angering or generally upsetting, sometimes to the point where I feel that I have to take a break from following news and current events and do something that's actually enjoyable. This apparent compulsion among some to add a layer of wacky cabals and made-up horrors on top of that is fucking alien to me.

I've heard the hypothesis that such a worldview means that at least someone is in control of the world, even if they're evil, and that's somehow comforting. But if I truly believed that the entire world is under the thumb of some shadowy conspiracy rather than just being a fucking chaotic mess, that wouldn't comfort me. I'd just give up caring about politics and shit like that, because that would mean that the ultimate "bad guys" have had everything sown up from centuries ago all the way until the end of the world. Maybe Q types think differently because they think God is on their side, but I can't look at the world and see the hand of a benevolent deity at work anywhere. Just people.
 
NoXion said:
I'm starting to wonder if there's an analogous phenomenon to the one where some people are energised by social interactions, vs other people being drained by them. The crazy world of the conspiranoids and Q-MAGAts, with its endless cavalcade of ever-more extreme outrages, sounds fucking exhausting to me. But for some people, it seems to be endlessly engaging. There's a lot of things (real things) happening in this world that are disgusting, angering or generally upsetting, sometimes to the point where I feel that I have to take a break from following news and current events and do something that's actually enjoyable. This apparent compulsion among some to add a layer of wacky cabals and made-up horrors on top of that is fucking alien to me.

I've heard the hypothesis that such a worldview means that at least someone is in control of the world, even if they're evil, and that's somehow comforting. But if I truly believed that the entire world is under the thumb of some shadowy conspiracy rather than just being a fucking chaotic mess, that wouldn't comfort me. I'd just give up caring about politics and shit like that, because that would mean that the ultimate "bad guys" have had everything sown up from centuries ago all the way until the end of the world. Maybe Q types think differently because they think God is on their side, but I can't look at the world and see the hand of a benevolent deity at work anywhere. Just people.
Click to expand...

They’re not looking at anything else. It’s not on top of anything. It’s just the stuff they look at, exclusively.
When asked for reasons or details or clarification or any kind of context, they don’t have any. They love this shit in isolation of anything real.

Truth is that normal politics is quite boring really. That’s a big reason so many are disengaged. Plenty of MAGA folk have never voted before at all, and don’t know who their own local Republican rep is (or if they do, no one else). It’s like a carnival to them. And now that Trump has become quite boring and repetitive, his rally crowd size is down and those that do go leave in large numbers during his speechifying.

Biden dropping out and Harris stepping up was interesting and got Democratic voters involved again, but that’s starting to fade off now they’ve gotten used to it. The recent push of big crazy stores is partly to take advantage of that drop off.


There have been lots of studies of the things you’re talking about. We are certainly living in interesting times. I’m no scholar so can’t point you to the research but I’ve listened to stuff on the radio that references it.

I think there’s a lot more subtler and nuance that you suggest. Also a lot of completely normal human sociological behaviour being played out too, albeit extreme/pathological.
 
story said:
I think there are some of those deliberately manipulative people, but fewer than supposed. And much higher up than where these stories begin.

I don’t think Putin’s chums are sitting around brainstorming new bizarre stories. They’ve got bigger fish frying in the bubbling butter.

Some of these stories start as jokes or misheard misunderstandings etc. that get exaggerated. Remember that most peop,e do not have good critical skills. And they’re already primed and pumped to believe this stuff. Pizzagate is a good example.

Alex Jones may be doing it a bit (gay frogs was a kind of exaggerated extended thing, the state actors thing was a kind of logical extension of something he was already saying). I think he’s deliberately dressing shit up, but I also think he genuinely believes some of it.

Listen to Things Fell Apart to be amazed by how some of these wild stores start as little pebbles.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC Radio 4 - Things Fell Apart, S1. Ep 1: 1000 Dolls

Strange tales from the culture wars by Jon Ronson.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...
Personally, I think the worst actors in all of this are predominatly domestic to the US. The Russians are taking advantage of the situation and stirring the pot further, but this has been an ongoing issue under the surface over there for well over a century at least. I've listened to Things Fell Apart and a related series more directly related to Qanon and the rise of Trump:
www.bbc.co.uk

BBC Sounds - The Coming Storm - Available Episodes

Listen to the latest episodes of The Coming Storm on BBC Sounds.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
Nylock said:
Personally, I think the worst actors in all of this are predominatly domestic to the US. The Russians are taking advantage of the situation and stirring the pot further, but this has been an ongoing issue under the surface over there for well over a century at least. I've listened to Things Fell Apart and a related series more directly related to Qanon and the rise of Trump:
www.bbc.co.uk

BBC Sounds - The Coming Storm - Available Episodes

Listen to the latest episodes of The Coming Storm on BBC Sounds.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...


Yeah that one is good too.

And I agree with the other things you say here.
 
NoXion

Watch this to get a sense of where MAGA are…





These may be the tippy top of the floating scum opinions, but while they may be unusual in their performance and delivery, they’re not unusual in their opinions and (lack of) thinking.
 
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Nylock said:
Hopefully at some point in the debate tonight she will do what Sanders was threatening if he got the nomination back in '16 and '20 and that is to openly call him a liar and systematically go through each of the lies that he spouts in the debate challenging him to show the proof.
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I hope not - calling him a liar, a rapist, a bankrupt or anything else doesn’t work because he just uses whataboutery or says all politicians are like that.

Getting him with a zinger, or better yet taking the piss out of him is going to be far more effective. Like nearly all those who dish it out he is woefully unable to take it himself.
 
agricola said:
I hope not - calling him a liar, a rapist, a bankrupt or anything else doesn’t work because he just uses whataboutery or says all politicians are like that.

Getting him with a zinger, or better yet taking the piss out of him is going to be far more effective. Like nearly all those who dish it out he is woefully unable to take it himself.
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Agreed but he also really hates being called a liar -it's one thing guaranteed to set him off on a ragey rant loop.
 
agricola said:
I hope not - calling him a liar, a rapist, a bankrupt or anything else doesn’t work because he just uses whataboutery or says all politicians are like that.

Getting him with a zinger, or better yet taking the piss out of him is going to be far more effective. Like nearly all those who dish it out he is woefully unable to take it himself.
Click to expand...


I’m not sure he really matters at this point. It feels like he’s being shoved from behind like some kind of homunculus or poppet. It’s pretty clear that he’s not smart enough to be coming up with fiendishly clever Machiavellian plans. He’s like an automaton, or a zombie, nothing at all inside except for the program or instinctive urge to keeps going forward towards his desired target.

He’s useful to those who are pulling the levers. He’ll get ditched when hi becomes less useful.

So hitting him is of limited use.

Those who support him (be they MAGA or the ones behind) don’t give two shits about him being attacked or defamed, albeit for different reasons. MAGA don’t care, and for the others it doesn’t matter.

The more empty and pointless he is, the more dangerous he becomes. The more irrelevant the man is, the more useful he becomes as a vessel.

It’s those who push and those who follow who are dangerous.

Ring side seat at the Circus at the end of the world, yo.
 
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story said:
Ring side seat at the Circus at the end of the world, yo.
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It does feel that way. With climate change continuing unabated, this election could be one of the major milestones for the future. With Trump elected, we'll get "drill baby drill" and nothing even acknowledging climate change. I feel like I should pull up a chair and toast some marshmallows and watch the show unfold.
 
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