lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
Agree. Plenty to criticise RTD for but continuity across seasons is definitely not one of them.
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Absolutely. The man cannot do endings to save his life, but the idea that he doesn't get plot and internal logic* is just silly.
(just because you dont like the ending doesn't mean there is something wrong with the logic of it - thats not how logic works)
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
I honestly don't give 'that' much of a shit about continuity across seasons, but I do want a stand alone story to make sense in it's own internal logic within that story. This last season has not had that.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
That's a hot take... You've never seen the show over the last 60 years, evidently ...
The Doctor has slowly gotten better at piloting the Tardis over the years. In the Davison era he could get where he wanted a lot of the time but not always. That Doctor's Wife episode showed the TARDIS had a mind of its own. Made the whole thing a bit Quantum Leap when the Doctor said something along the lines of "You don't always take me where I want to go" and the TARDIS lady responded "but I always took you where you needed to go."
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Deffo some 'new who' doesn't make sense. I'm re-watching 'classic who', and they are all pretty shonky, with some quite weird leaps of logic and not very well thought out character motivations. . . . But I've not seen anything as daft as the latest finale, where Ruby's mum mystery bore no relation to the Susan / Sutek issue, yet the doctor got sidetracked by it during another supposedly super urgent mystery. Episodes ended this season without explanation, not even a bad one.
Rather than just being weak, this seasons stories feel unfinished. I'm fairly certain a decent script editor could have fixed them. It does kind of feel like rtd has just been waving his hands and saying "I don't give a shit, it's fine".
Even the notoriously nonsensical ghost light had the script finished, and was butchered during production due to other issues.
Rather than just being weak, this seasons stories feel unfinished. I'm fairly certain a decent script editor could have fixed them. It does kind of feel like rtd has just been waving his hands and saying "I don't give a shit, it's fine".
Even the notoriously nonsensical ghost light had the script finished, and was butchered during production due to other issues.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Dunno. Imho, despite the occasional disappointment, reckon RTD gets Who. Apart from the first and last episodes of the latest series, they were pretty good and would watch them again.
Ok, so the show isn't like when we were in our youth, but who is?
Ok, so the show isn't like when we were in our youth, but who is?
It’s not continuity across seasons that I’m bothered about, it’s the fact that the writer thinks that it’s okay to paper over any plot hole he likes with a one-liner. A lack of internal consistency is just bad writing — stories need things to happen for a reason and for that reason to be satisfying. Otherwise, it’s just a load of random stuff that happens and who cares?
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
I know it's not like it was in my youth, in the same way I knew that each doctor wasn't like the last and Hartnel was very different from Davison. That is not an excuse for sloppy writing. If I was concerned about Doctor Who not being a hard sci fi with award winning writing I wouldn't even be here. The daftness, wobbly sets and all have always been part of the charm for me. It's Britains Ultraman.
The really disappointing thing is that it was actually 'nearly there', but it really sounds like RTD literally said "fuck it, nobody cares".
The babies episode could have been good with script adjustments (though that one at least roughly makes sense). Dot and ball was an idea that wasn't fully thought out (couple of tweaks - why grow slugs? Why not just have the balls execute everyone in order in a few seconds? Why in alphabetical order anyway? as preposterous as all this was, it could have been written in) and the racism / classest aspect should have been fully committed to instead of dancing around the edges.
etc. . .
I don't think the 'you are not a kid anymore', 'it can't be like you had as a kid anymore' excuses work. I don't want it to be either of those things. I just want it to be a bit wobbly and daft but solid. An adventure of the week story with an eccentric asexual alien hobo in a broken time machine.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Brooker or Seth MacFarlane
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
It was shite.
It had a great idea behind it and then stank it all up.
Let's put in giant slugs eating people on social media. Great! But why? Hummmm, I can't be bothered to come up with a good reason - fuck it. Nobody cares.
Fairy circle .
Great idea behind it and then stank it all up.
But why is she there? Hummmm, I can't be bothered to come up with a good reason - fuck it. Nobody cares.
OH no wait, I have got it! It's herself. BOOM! Big reveal. But why? Hummmm, I can't be bothered to come up with a good reason - fuck it. Nobody cares.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
The vast majority of the details in the last episode were set up in earlier episodes. The rope, the way memory works, the call backs to Ap thingy the (would be) Prime Minister. That is all decent plotting and internally consistent.
The way it tied in (supposedly) with Ruby's story was abysmal. He's even done the 'ohh, ordinary people are actually the most miraculous' thing before, hasn't he? Obviously, fucking up the big arc story leaves a bitter taste in the mouth, but that and the Beatles episode aside, it was a pretty good series. A couple of great stories, a good Doc & companion, a lot of excellent wit (everyone repeatedly telling the Doc who was being a patronising bastard was grand). Hell, even the Space Babies one was way better than it had any right to be. Less Bonnie Langford would obviously be good. Or, even, fewer Bonnie Langford's.
A work of masterful genius? Hell no. But it's primetime family entertainment, not Chekhov.
The way it tied in (supposedly) with Ruby's story was abysmal. He's even done the 'ohh, ordinary people are actually the most miraculous' thing before, hasn't he? Obviously, fucking up the big arc story leaves a bitter taste in the mouth, but that and the Beatles episode aside, it was a pretty good series. A couple of great stories, a good Doc & companion, a lot of excellent wit (everyone repeatedly telling the Doc who was being a patronising bastard was grand). Hell, even the Space Babies one was way better than it had any right to be. Less Bonnie Langford would obviously be good. Or, even, fewer Bonnie Langford's.
A work of masterful genius? Hell no. But it's primetime family entertainment, not Chekhov.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
There has always been inexplicable moments over the years.
The Watcher in Logopolis, for example.
"So he was the Doctor all the time" said Tegan or Nyssa.
But how? And that was that, no explanation or how it fits in to the regeneration process.
Or the Valeyard. A great villain but no explanation how he came about...
That's the show. Great ideas but not always fleshed out or explained.
You just get used to it, in the end.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Never had a problem with those things. . . but I wouldn't go as far any of that stuff was good.
I have already said it but, it could all have been fixed. It sounds like RTD just doesn't give a shit / thinks he is better than that and doesn't need a script editor.
I'm not expecting Checkhov. What I am expecting are simple, solid fun stories that make sense. Not shit big over complicated ones that don't.
We obviously don't agree on what good is.
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
but he was specifically talking about plot holes caused by Dr Who's long and complex continuity, not papering something over in one episode. But even then, I think a one liner is absolutely fine if it fits with some kind of internal logic and makes sense - the problem is when it absolutely doesn't, such as the inexplicably scary hooded 15 year old Ruby's mum pointing at the road sign.
You can't see a link between a writer happily broadcasting that plot holes are irrelevant within the canon and who cares anyway, and them also thinking that they are irrelevant within a season? If you can't, can I please point you to the evidence of everything that RTD has ever written?
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
But RTD has written some amazing television. He's absolutely not uniformly bad at this stuff. He has weaknesses and tendencies to go about things in particular ways that don't always work. But in general I'm a big fan of his stuff - but not of this season, which stinks, apart from a few episodes that are completely overshadowed by the overall failure.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I agree with the first part of that post, and while I was disappointed in this season I wasn’t as disappointed as you seem to be. I’m somewhere between you and belboid on this.
He’s good at certain types of writing, but can you point me to him crafting a clever story that unfolds through the kind of mechanics that he’s being criticised for failing at here? Anything good he’s written, certainly that I can think of, has very much been about the unfolding of everyday life events and the effect of that on the trajectory of ordinary lives. And we can see why — he simply doesn’t care about plot holes or internal consistency.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
That sort of thing I don't care about.
That explanation was enough for me. All registrations are weird. The watcher wasn't a 'story' as such.
I think you are confused about what I am complaining about. I am complaining about the basic stories not making sense. The doctor connects rubys mother mystery to suteck for NO REASON. He rushes urgently into UNIT then they fuck about trying to find out about Ruby's mum. Why? Why does that suddenly happen and why is that suddenly so urgent?
I don't give a shit about all the crap rope bullshit . . . that's just the usual bad writing.
The fact that ruby's mum was dressed in a robe an pointing at a sign, that's just daft shite doctor who. Fine. Just shite.
That is shit yes, but it doesn't actually matter for the basic story.
I would worry more about what we saw in the matrix. Did the doctor do that stuff? Was it matrix manipulation, was he shitty to Perry? None of that makes sense. All of that was an absolute mess. That's a really good example of a story that doesn't make sense within it's own internal logic. . . . and guess what? It was absolute shit and I hated it.
Why do we need to compare a modern episode to the shittest of the old episodes to validate it? That's surely doesn't make it good writing.
In the classic series they usually are though. I honestly don't mind them dropping in a line to fix a weird inconstancy.
Not good enough, and no you don't.
It's not like I haven't been watching since I was a little kid.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Ok, well, been watching it for 50 years at this stage and it's far better than the last of the JNT years. Imho, obviously.
It's just never been consistent in terms of continuity and making sense. And that's ok. It's not always going to please everyone.
Am more annoyed that Outer Range has been cancelled, Tbh.
It's just never been consistent in terms of continuity and making sense. And that's ok. It's not always going to please everyone.
Am more annoyed that Outer Range has been cancelled, Tbh.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Mine too. As far as I’m concerned that’s non-canon.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Lol, I understand but am fine with all that being canon. Duff episodes and arcs are just duff.
Even have a soft spot for the original K-9 and Company...
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
Now is probably the time to explore the McCoy era danny, as it's far more rewarding than what we've just gone through. You can of course persist in your belief that it's a poorly realised, dramatised version of what actually happened, which will help when watching the Kandyman.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Has it? Oh, I was going to start watching that.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
I think McCoys stories got a bit better towards the end. Especially after Mel got the boot. He was a good enough actor.
I didn't watch them all at the time, I felt it had gone right off the rails and I was a teenager at college with 'cooler' things to worry about. On re-watching a few over the years, they weren't 'that' bad.
I managed to sit through the whole of Paradice Towers this week without grumbling.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I read an interview of him and they were saying he’d acted in a lot of very different roles and how did he pick which ones to do. He said something like “whenever someone offers to pay me for dressing up I say ‘yes please’”. I liked that.
(Edited to change ridiculous autocorrect).
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ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
He seems like a decent chap. He played the spoons for a band U75 poster Rutabowa played in. Rutabowa also used to owned McCoy's Doctor Who hat. . . but sold it a few years ago.
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