Did You Vote LibDem?

[past caring]

But any statement that begins by blaming the Liberal Democrats for the presence of a Tory government must logically start by considering what would have happened without the Liberal Democrats. If the Tories would have got in anyway then people who voted Liberal cannot be blamed.

I ask this pure as an academic exercise. As I said previously, I live in such an overwhelmingly Tory area that it really makes bugger-all difference who I vote for.

You're not very good at this logic thing, are you?

 

[butchersapron]

Theres no need to address this whatsoever it's far better to have recriminations and self congratulating back slapping that what ever happens the smug and shill aren't to blame ... who cares if they'll suffer the consequences all the same as long as they can go to their graves saying I told you so they're happy...

again no action before or after the election merely like the old gits from the muppets sitting on the side lines sniping about things...

Still Internet rages and keyboard warriorism is far better than real world action...we all know that right....

Amazing, people who don't support labout must come with a plan to put labour back in power, whilst those same non-labour supporters are castigated as labour shills. Quite incredible - and quite quite lost.

 

[danny la rouge]

But any statement that begins by blaming the Liberal Democrats for the presence of a Tory government must logically start by considering what would have happened without the Liberal Democrats. If the Tories would have got in anyway then people who voted Liberal cannot be blamed.

I ask this pure as an academic exercise. As I said previously, I live in such an overwhelmingly Tory area that it really makes bugger-all difference who I vote for.

OK, let's assume there was a hung parliament, but no such thing as the Lib Dems. Is that the thought experiment? OK. Let us further assume that the Tories were in the same position, but nobody coalesces with them to give them a majority. What happens? One of two things. The others coalesce to form a majority, or the Tories form a minority government. What happens if a government can't get its Queen's Speech accepted? It falls.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

This presumes that BA or myself wanted Labour to win; which for my part I didn't (and unless BA has recieved a sharp blow to the head I can't imagine that he did either).

Louis MacNeice

well in which case what's your alternative then?

abstention from the whole process and sitting on the side lines saying haha it's not my fault i'm morally pure even though i'm just as fucked as everyone else...

Well good...

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Because it goes to the heart of the current political situation.

Let me be clear - I don't necessarily have an answer to it but if that isn't the starting point for analysing this election then you're in trouble from the off.

When you said 'But even if you're a non-labour left-wing politico, it is still the most pertinent question to ask', I thought you'd appreciate that for some 'non-labour left-wing politicos' electoral politics are not the limit of their interest. That being the case there are much more important questions to ask than 'why Labour lost'.

Louis MacNeice

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Amazing, people who don't support labout must come with a plan to put labour back in power, whilst those same non-labour supporters are castigated as labour shills. Quite incredible - and quite quite lost.

well by the tone of the recent threads if you're not labour then by default your a tory so assuming that you're not a tory ...

Though even that wouldn't surprise me tbf....

Or are you one of those cavalier shills who claims I don't vote cos (some bollocks excuse which always in the end boils down to cos I'm too fucking lazy and think being disenfranchised is kewl).

 

[kabbes]

OK, let's assume there was a hung parliament, but no such thing as the Lib Dems. Is that the thought experiment? OK. Let us further assume that the Tories were in the same position, but nobody coalesces with them to give them a majority. What happens? One of two things. The others coalesce to form a majority, or the Tories form a minority government. What happens if a government can't get its Queen's Speech accepted? It falls.

No, the thought experiment is: would there have been a hung parliament at all?

I presume not, since there would only really be two games in town in each of the English constituencies.

So then, the thought experiment continues: who would have won? In other words, did the Liberals end up taking the crucial seats from the Tories or from Labour?

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not lashing out I really couldn't give a shit what the no mark numpties on here think about their labour at any cost policy or their support for one branch of neo liberal conservatives over another to me it's like people arguing over which is more healthy coke or pepsi... but I understand why it's important for little elitists like you and you kin to try and continue this false impression...

but it's still a nonsense...

Yes you are, and yes you do. Your amazing eye for detail has managed to round up 3 non-labour supporters as advocates of support labour at all costs approach. With analysis of this qualit, this sharpness, i reckon someone should snap you up.

 

[Diamond]

When you said 'But even if you're a non-labour left-wing politico, it is still the most pertinent question to ask', I thought you'd appreciate that for some 'non-labour left-wing politicos' electoral politics are not the limit of their interest. That being the case there are much more important questions to ask than 'why Labour lost'.

Louis MacNeice

Such as?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yes you are, and yes you do. Your amazing eye for detail has managed to round up 3 non-labour supporters as advocates of support labour at all costs approach. With analysis of this qualit, this sharpness, i reckon someone should snap you up.

if you didn't vote labour you're a tory is the tenant of these threads did you vote labour then?

if not you're a tory which is it?

 

[butchersapron]

well by the tone of the recent threads if you're not labour then by default your a tory so assuming that you're not a tory ...

Though even that wouldn't surprise me tbf....

Or are you one of those cavalier shills who claims I don't vote cos (some bollocks excuse which always in the end boils down to cos I'm too fucking lazy and think being disenfranchised is kewl).

garf, your life of unearned privilege has left you woefully detached from reality.

 

[moon23]

Finally and totally sold out. You might want to know why I'm so angry and why I de-friended you on Facebook. I'm worried about my job, it's under threat from your new mates, the tories. It's OK for you to not care about being unemployed, but some of us have families to support and mortgages to pay.

I'm sorry to hear your job maybe under threat, I don't think taking your anger out on me or calling my friends scum will help or is fair.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

garf, your life of unearned privilege has left you woefully detached from reality.

that's a yes isn't it...

you voted tory...

 

[danny la rouge]

well in which case what's your alternative then?

abstention from the whole process and sitting on the side lines saying haha it's not my fault i'm morally pure even though i'm just as fucked as everyone else...

Well good...

The supposition here is that casting a vote is the form political action can take. Whereas, I know that you actually know otherwise.

I put it to you that casting a vote is not in fact political action at all, since it is an endorsement of more of the same.

 

[cesare]

well by the tone of the recent threads if you're not labour then by default your a tory so assuming that you're not a tory ...

Though even that wouldn't surprise me tbf....

Or are you one of those cavalier shills who claims I don't vote cos (some bollocks excuse which always in the end boils down to cos I'm too fucking lazy and think being disenfranchised is kewl).

You calling me a 'cavalier shill'? Cos if you are, please would you tell me (a) what one is; and (b) the basis for why you think I am one.

 

[butchersapron]

that's a yes isn't it...

you voted tory...

Yes garf, i voted tory. Now back to the castle.

 

[past caring]

No, the thought experiment is: would there have been a hung parliament at all?

I presume not, since there would only really be two games in town in each of the English constituencies.

So then, the thought experiment continues: who would have won? In other words, did the Liberals end up taking the crucial seats from the Tories or from Labour?

So this is the "logic"? i.e. Just pie-in-the-sky nonsense?

Like asking what human beings would drink if there were no water on earth. Fucking rubbish.

 

[kabbes]

please would you tell me (a) what one is

Thank God somebody asked. I was too afraid to.

 

[danny la rouge]

if you didn't vote labour you're a tory is the tenant of these threads did you vote labour then?

No. I started this thread, and that is not my point.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

well in which case what's your alternative then?

abstention from the whole process and sitting on the side lines saying haha it's not my fault i'm morally pure even though i'm just as fucked as everyone else...

Well good...

Yes that's my prefered option; no wait someone else told me I wanted to sterilise africans...that must be it.

Alternatively you could stop making stuff up. My alternative is for working class people to create their own alternatives, inside and outside parliament, inside and outside the council chamber, at work and where they live. I trust them to come up with better answers than those currently on offer at Westminster.

Louis MacNeice

 

[kabbes]

So this is the "logic"? i.e. Just pie-in-the-sky nonsense?

Like asking what human beings would drink if there were no water on earth. Fucking rubbish.

Why? The LibDems are being blamed for the existence of the Tory government. It follows that if there were no LibDems, there would be no Tory government.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The supposition here is that casting a vote is the form political action can take. Whereas, I know that you actually know otherwise.

I put it to you that casting a vote is not in fact political action at all, since it is an endorsement of more of the same.

I put it to you that regardless of the possible outcomes that everyone should vote even if it's just to spoil your paper.

or risk being disenfranchised and by extension deemed irrelevant in regards to the system that is...

This isn't a wider debate about the relative rights and wrongs of voting this is a if you didn't vote labour you're a tory thread

 

[cesare]

Thank God somebody asked. I was too afraid to.

I thought it was some kind of re-enactment history society role, but I thought I'd better check.

 

[past caring]

I don't think taking your anger out on me or calling my friends scum will help or is fair.

Diddums.

 

[butchersapron]

risk being disenfranchised

You're so so...wrong.

 

[kabbes]

This thread has all gone wrong

 

[butchersapron]

Thank God somebody asked. I was too afraid to.

He means a dilettante like himself.

 

[danny la rouge]

No, the thought experiment is: would there have been a hung parliament at all?

I presume not, since there would only really be two games in town in each of the English constituencies.

So then, the thought experiment continues: who would have won? In other words, did the Liberals end up taking the crucial seats from the Tories or from Labour?

Sorry, you mean "what if everything was different?"? Well, yes, if everything was different, everything would be different.

hth

 

[kabbes]

I thought it was some kind of re-enactment history society role, but I thought I'd better check.

Putting "cavalier shill" into a Google image search gave me this, if it is any help to you:

 

[the button]

You calling me a 'cavalier shill'? Cos if you are, please would you tell me (a) what one is; and (b) the basis for why you think I am one.