David Icke lecture @ Wembley Arena, October 2012

[LiamO]

That wasn't a "conspiracy". It was government policy.

tbf. I read that as Jazzz saying his granda's tendency to belief in conspiracy theories led to him taking pre-emptive action in removiong himself from Germany.

People would do well to remember that lots of the German Left just laughed at the Nazi's - and dismissed others arguing for pre-emptive strikes as conspiraloons (although I'm sure they had a german word for it - they seem to have a word for most things) - right up until they were lifted and sent off to the camps.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

People would do well to remember that lots of the German Left just laughed at the Nazi's - and dismissed others arguing for pre-emptive strikes as conspiraloons (although I'm sure they had a german word for it - they seem to have a word for most things) - right up until they were lifted and sent off to the camps.

It's a shame that the German left couldn't reason with the brownshirts via an online message board.

 

[butchersapron]

If jazzz is claiming some sort of genetic inheritance that allows him to see conspiracies or dodginess i wonder why he's ended up on the side of the brownshirts?

 

[LiamO]

It's a shame that the German left couldn't reason with the brownshirts via an online message board.

or dismiss them haughtily as 'keyboard warriors'.

 

[editor]

tbf. I read that as Jazzz saying his granda's tendency to belief in conspiracy theories led to him taking pre-emptive action in removiong himself from Germany.

Unlike Jazzz's holographic planes, CIA Mike Yarwood teams and Icke lizard nonsense, there was proof a-plenty of where the Nazis were heading, long before they took power.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, whatever.

My point here is very simple.

It is absurd to equate to equate anti-zionism with anti-semitism. In fact, pretty much the only place it seems to occur is only Icke threads on urban75. And of course silly articles on conspiracy stuff in the mainstream media.

The two aren't being equated here. Icke's animus against what he calls "Rothschild Zionism" isn't anti-Zionism as any committed political anti-Zionist would recognise it, but is rather a selective assault on a coded enemy that happens to reduce to the same group of people he's previously coded as "international bankers". Those of us who aren't being disingenuous see that these codings represent "Jews involved in finance capitalism", not least through Icke's referencing of the Protocols and their ideas on the dominance of capitalism by "the Jews". That is anti-Semitism. It may well be hedged with attempts to deflect from that reality, but it's anti-Semitism nonetheless.

Anti-Zionism as a philosophy is about resisting a particular politics that can be loosely described as Israeli nationalist Zionism and its' supporters and, if you take it wider to the social/religious sector inhabited by the likes of Neturei Karta, resisting the usurpation of Yahweh's role in the rebirth of Israel by politically-motivated ideologues.

 

[ViolentPanda]

TruXta, I am alive because my great-grandfather was a conspiracy theorist, and realised that his government was about to make life extremely difficult for German Jewry, and he got his family out in time. If I felt for one moment that Icke was in any way racist I would have no truck with him. However, he clearly is not. He is extremely clear to point out that it is an elite plot by some few bloodlines and NOT an entire race of people. I really don't much care for "guilt by association" attacks, if you actually had a clue how fascism takes hold neither would you.

"Got his family out in time" usually equates to "had the money to buy his way out" for German Jewry, and it's hardly as if one needed to be a conspiracy theorist to foresee what Hitler would do. What killed so many German Jews was a twofold issue - not being able to afford to flee, and believing that whatever Hitler said, he wouldn't be able to carry the German people with him. What they couldn't foresee was how Hitler would infiltrate the state so quickly with Nazism, and how doing so made him able to dictate what happened without reference to "the people".

 

[LiamO]

Unlike Jazzz's holographic planes, CIA Mike Yarwood teams and Icke lizard nonsense, there was proof a-plenty of where the Nazis were heading, long before they took power.

'Proof' which many, particularly on the Left, continued to ignore as they laughed at the NSDAP and dismissed the Red Front Fighters as boot-boys and fantasists.

None of which is relevant to this thread, but I am amazed that when there is so much about Icke (and, apparently, about Jazzz) to choose to take aim at, so many legitimate targets, that some people are determinedly erecting strawmen.

 

[butchersapron]

Also, it's worth remembering that jews were still being allowed to leave Germany through official channels as late as 1941. The nazi state wanted the jews to leave and encouraged them to do so through all sorts of ways prior to that date.Leaving germany post march 1933 shows very little (or no) foresight frankly.

 

[butchersapron]

'Proof' which many, particularly on the Left, continued to ignore as they laughed at the NSDAP and dismissed the Red Front Fighters as boot-boys and fantasists.

None of which is relevant to this thread, but I am amazed that when there is so much about Icke (and, apparently, about Jazzz) to choose to take aim at, so many legitimate targets, that some people are determinedly erecting strawmen.

Which strawman are you referring to?

 

[Voley]

That's ace. Particularly the bits where he says Buzz Lightyear instead of Buzz Aldrin.

 

[editor]

'Proof' which many, particularly on the Left, continued to ignore as they laughed at the NSDAP and dismissed the Red Front Fighters as boot-boys and fantasists.

Sure, but that's quite different to the entirely evidence-free loon-monkery that Jazzz goes on about (invisibly installed, invisible explosives, anyone?).

 

[LiamO]

Which strawman are you referring to?

To answer this properly would involve reading the bits of this thread I have actually read again - and also the many pages I haven't even looked at. Frankly, I would rather stick pins in my eyes so I will bow out.

Whilst I do not doubt the sincerity of many posters on this thread, I am just left a little uneasy about the amount of over-the-shouldering and drive-by's going on. It reminds me of the abuse detective-boy used to get on occasion (and which I freely indulged in myself).

 

[Corax]

My mate swears he was in proximity to Icke at a Glastonbury where he had the acid that trigured a broader episode.

I've heard similar pub talk about David Shayler.

Of course, "they" could have spiked them. How about that?

I've always thought spiking was a very plausible possibility for Shayler.He was whistleblowing on the secret service, and didn't seem to show any nuts tendencies originally, other than a sense of persecution that it could be argued was entirely justified. I met him during his Old Bailey trial and at that point there was no hint of what was to come. Given what declassified historical records have revealed about the past behaviour of the US and UK security services, discrediting him entirely by spangling his mind would almost be an expected response from them.

 

[butchersapron]

There was no need to spike the prick - he was doing all sorts off his own back. Spiking was what his loon (former) mates actually claimed when he went too far even for them. Anyone who saw the state of him at the time knew he didn't need spiking.

 

[Corax]

There was no need to spike the prick - he was doing all sorts off his own back. Spiking was what his loon (former) mates actually claimed when he went too far even for them. Anyone who saw the state of him at the time knew he didn't need spiking.

At what time?

 

[Corax]

In Swedish "icke" means not, or anti, or non. So an icke lecture is a non-lecture, and an icke conspiraloon is a non-conspiraloon. Sorry, you're probably all icke interested.

So when Icke says he's the messiah, he's actually.....

 

[butchersapron]

At what time?

At the time he proclaimed that he was the messiah.

 

[Corax]

At the time he proclaimed that he was the messiah.

Well yeah. If it was the case that he was spiked, you'd expect that to have happened before the fruitloopery. And by the time he proclaimed himself the Messiah he was well down the rainbow-hued road of wobble.

I don't know whether he was spiked and neither does 'anyone else'. I doubt anyone would gasp with shock and surprise if records were released in 50 years or whatever revealing that he was though.

 

[butchersapron]

Why spike someone if they're already taking the stuff that you intend to spike them with?

 

[Corax]

Why spike someone if they're already taking the stuff that you intend to spike them with?

Makes it a nice simple job to arrange for them to get something far stronger/different to what they're expecting. Why does it matter?

 

[butchersapron]

Exactly - why does it matter? If he's already necking everything going why bother?

 

[Corax]

I've only done psychedelics a handful of times, but my understanding is that even the heaviest users aren't guaranteed to lose the plot permanently.

 

[LiamO]

I've only done psychedelics a handful of times, but my understanding is that even the heaviest users aren't guaranteed to lose the plot permanently.

... and Steve Jobs claims taking lots of acid was one of the 3 most important things he ever did.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm not entirely comfortable with people trying to claim that Jazzz is antisemitic. I don't think he is. Icke is though and the problem I have with Jazzz and his ilk is that they swallow his bullshit far too uncritically (which is ironic really because the sheeple apparently swallow the ill defined elite's bullshit too uncritically). In defending Icke they're making excuses for antisemitism and making it easier for even more dangerous antisemites to disguise their bigotry. But that's not antisemitism, it's just idiocy, albeit potentially dangerous idiocy. Personally I think it's a defence mechanism - he's invested far too much time and energy in conspiraloonery to even begin to contemplate the possibility that the sheeple of urban75 might be right. And so he's willing to commit the kind of crimes against logic and evidence we've all become accustomed to.

 

[twentythreedom]

Can we all agree that Nathaniel Rothschild is an odious creep?

 

[Idris2002]

I'm not entirely comfortable with people trying to claim that Jazzz is antisemitic. I don't think he is. Icke is though and the problem I have with Jazzz and his ilk is that they swallow his bullshit far too uncritically (which is ironic really because the sheeple apparently swallow the ill defined elite's bullshit too uncritically). In defending Icke they're making excuses for antisemitism and making it easier for even more dangerous antisemites to disguise their bigotry. But that's not antisemitism, it's just idiocy, albeit potentially dangerous idiocy. Personally I think it's a defence mechanism - he's invested far too much time and energy in conspiraloonery to even begin to contemplate the possibility that the sheeple of urban75 might be right. And so he's willing to commit the kind of crimes against logic and evidence we've all become accustomed to.

If he and/or Icke aren't antisemites, then they're ideological Typhoid Marys (Maries?). Which on a proper reading of your post is sort of what you're saying anyway.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I don't think Jazzz is antisemetic, just so far down his rabbit hole that he can't see things in a critical light anymore.

 

[TruXta]

I don't think Jazzz is antisemetic, just so far down his rabbit hole that he can't see things in a critical light anymore.

More like anti-semiotic?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Just to be clear, I think Icke IS antisemitic, he's flirted with holocaust denial, used the protocols as a source and, noticing that this wasn't too popular, has changed his language to make it appear less offensive.

Whereas I don't think Jazzz is antisemitic and I think he (erroneously) believes Icke when he says he isn't either. That doesn't make Jazzz's spreading of these theories any less dangerous but idiocy and bigotry, while often comfortable bedfellows, aren't one and the same.