Dance troupe Diversity's Black Lives Matter performance receives 24,000 complaints

[littlebabyjesus]

I find it odd that BLM was born in the US and spread to the UK some 4,000+ miles away yet the same concern has never been considered for those living in eg Equatorial Guinea. It’s almost as if black lives don’t matter at all unless there’s a racially divisive angle to be gained by those seeking it.

Not so odd. You're comparing apples with oranges. In one case you have societies in which there is systemic racism that is a lived everyday reality for black people living there, which is the thing that BLM addresses. In the other case you have a country with desperately poor people in it who are poor as a result of structural exploitative systems but who don't experience any racism at all on a day to day level.

If you think BLM is racially divisive, you're misreading it imo.

ETA: Having said that, one very positive thing that came to the fore at least briefly here wrt BLM was getting people to think about about why some people are rich and others are poor, both on an individual and a national level. The so-called 'decolonisation' of the school curriculum, for instance, is something that has been given a significant boost by BLM. All power to them for that.

That they don't address every problem everywhere? Well it's a bit silly to be asking them to, isn't it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, it was a simplification, but it suffices in this context i.e. where we're talking about the current US administration, to assume that, in the round, it's essentially a tool of capital.

But even that isn't straightforward. There will be those acting in the service of capital who will see racist policing as a hinderance, not a help, when it comes to maximising returns.

 

[belboid]

Thank you for a perfect example of what's wrong with identity politics.
That is no way to educate people or how to win them over. You don't convince someone by hectoring them, by shaming them, by calling them dumb, by cancelling them. I'm convinced that many people who consider themselves as not particularly political or who simply are poorly educated in issues of race, gender, sexuality, etc are put off by the tone of the discussion. Those people who were sitting on the fence, then are easy pickings for the alt right and for populists. Identity politics is narcissism dressed up as activism.

That’s hardly something unique to ‘identity politics’ (whatever that means, it’s pretty much different whoever you speak to) tho, I’ve seen it in every political sphere I’ve been involved with. Shit arguers are just shit arguers.

 

[souljacker]

Almost as if the history of white victims of police brutality is agreed with, or erased.

Almost as if you see what you want to see in peoples posts.

 

[belboid]

I find it odd that BLM was born in the US and spread to the UK some 4,000+ miles away yet the same concern has never been considered for those living in eg Equatorial Guinea. It’s almost as if black lives don’t matter at all unless there’s a racially divisive angle to be gained by those seeking it.

Wow. Opposing racism is ‘racially divisive’ now. Let’s just ignore it and it will go away. We’re all colour blind now, etc etc.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Not so odd. You're comparing apples with oranges. In one case you have societies in which there is systemic racism that is a lived everyday reality for black people living there, which is the thing that BLM addresses. In the other case you have a country with desperately poor people in it who are poor as a result of structural exploitative systems but who don't experience any racism at all on a day to day level.

If you think BLM is racially divisive, you're misreading it imo.

It’s definitely being exploited by many who are. Some well meaning, others who have other agendas.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It’s definitely being exploited by many who are. Some well meaning, others who have other agendas.

Such as?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Wow. Opposing racism is ‘racially divisive’ now. Let’s just ignore it and it will go away. We’re all colour blind now, etc etc.

and racism and exploitation also occurs under the cover of ‘opposing racism’. You’d argue in favour of those cunts though.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Such as?

Really?

 

[Athos]

What? Sounds like making excuses for bigots and buffoons.

No, I think they're wrong to take issue with it. But they do, which means it is divisive in the definitional sense i.e. that it tends to cause disagreement. That remains the case notwithstanding that disagreement is predicated on a misunderstanding, or even bigotry. I think it's a weakness of the slogan that even people who agree with the literal message are able to misinterpret the meaning.

 

[8ball]

That’s hardly something unique to ‘identity politics’ (whatever that means, it’s pretty much different whoever you speak to) tho, I’ve seen it in every political sphere I’ve been involved with.

Identity politics does help to amplify the issues that come with tribalism, though, because at its logical end you find yourself on a planet populated by 7.6 billion special-interest groups.

 

[Athos]

But even that isn't straightforward. There will be those acting in the service of capital who will see racist policing as a hinderance, not a help, when it comes to maximising returns.

True, which is why I said "in the round".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Really?

Ok well you've mentioned both the US and the UK, but this is a thread about a UK BLM thing, so let's stick to the UK for now. What I have seen is demonstrations that have attended by mostly young people and always multi-racial groups. I've seen the toppling of statues to slave owners, really heartwarming stuff. I've also seen attempts by numerous corporations, with varying degrees of cynicism, to jump on the bandwagon and attempt to coopt and so neutralise the message. But none of that is racially divisive.

What have you seen?

 

[Reno]

That’s hardly something unique to ‘identity politics’ (whatever that means, it’s pretty much different whoever you speak to) tho, I’ve seen it in every political sphere I’ve been involved with. Shit arguers are just shit arguers.

Now we have social media which gives shit arguers the exposure and the audience to fuck up the world even further, both on the left and the right. This type of thing is dominating much of the political discourse now. And the shit argument is always going to win, because most people don't like nuance, they like black & white answers.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Ok well you've mentioned both the US and the UK, but this is a thread about a UK BLM thing, so let's stick to the UK for now. What I have seen is demonstrations that have attended by mostly young people and always multi-racial groups. I've seen the toppling of statues to slave owners, really heartwarming stuff. I've also seen attempts by numerous corporations, with varying degrees of cynicism, to jump on the bandwagon and attempt to coopt and so neutralise the message. But none of that is racially divisive.

What have you seen?

You don’t think a movement that is built on identity could be exploited in the same way that eg the FLA was?

 

[8ball]

I've seen the toppling of statues to slave owners, really heartwarming stuff.

Unsure if sarcasm...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You don’t think a movement that is built on identity could be exploited in the same way that eg the FLA was?

For example...

Even there, I would take issue with the idea that this is a movement that is built on such a nebulous thing as identity. This is a movement that is built on the solid fact of racism.

Hard to say this without sounding rude, but I don't think you 'get' BLM. I think it's probably a much simpler phenomenon than you think it is.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Unsure if sarcasm...

In the grand scheme of things it may not matter much. But I followed that online live in Bristol and my heart was warmed.

We should enjoy small victories when they come.

 

[8ball]

In the grand scheme of things it may not matter much. But I followed that online live in Bristol and my heart was warmed.

We should enjoy small victories when they come.

Maybe it's a "you had to be there".

 

[killer b]

People find it really hard to hear that something they've done or said or think is racist, and lash out against the idea, however gently it's expressed (it seems to me). I'd welcome some ideas about how to talk about this stuff constructively, 'cause I actually think it's important that we do, even though there are other important battles to be had.

A few months ago, I had the task of sifting through a big pile of CVs for a temp position my company had: after sifting I remembered a show I'd heard on R4 about how people with obviously ethnic minority names struggled to get interviews, so I went through them again - and would you believe, every black or brown looking name was in the 'no' pile. It was pretty stark. But I also think it's probably a very natural thing to happen - you go with the familiar, the names you recognise, the people like you.

I expect everyone does it - in the people they hire, the people they choose to hang out with, the books they read, the art they consume, etc etc... and unless you're conscious about it and adjusting for it constantly - and that's always going to be an imperfect process with it's own problems and biases - it adds up to minorities being excluded in a thousand different ways. It adds up to us all being a bit racist. How do we talk about that without getting people's backs up though?

 

[8ball]

A few months ago, I had the task of sifting through a big pile of CVs for a temp position my company had: after sifting I remembered a show I'd heard on R4 about how people with obviously ethnic minority names struggled to get interviews, so I went through them again - and would you believe, every black or brown looking name was in the 'no' pile. It was pretty stark. But I also think it's probably a very natural thing to happen - you go with the familiar, the names you recognise, the people like you.

Did you have criteria you used while sifting that you later found yourself to have deviated from?

 

[Reno]

I hardly ever stray into the politics forums for the sake of my blood pressure, but editor keeps dragging topics in here, which should be in the news and politics forum.

This was never going to spark a long discussion about the artistry of a 4 minute dance number on a talent show, was it ?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Ok well you've mentioned both the US and the UK, but this is a thread about a UK BLM thing, so let's stick to the UK for now. What I have seen is demonstrations that have attended by mostly young people and always multi-racial groups. I've seen the toppling of statues to slave owners, really heartwarming stuff. I've also seen attempts by numerous corporations, with varying degrees of cynicism, to jump on the bandwagon and attempt to coopt and so neutralise the message. But none of that is racially divisive.

What have you seen?

It’s a shame that all the devils are white, even those who aren’t, and as such the focus is shifted from the simple fact that devils are due to power, not skin colour.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

People find it really hard to hear that something they've done or said or think is racist, and lash out against the idea, however gently it's expressed (it seems to me). I'd welcome some ideas about how to talk about this stuff constructively, 'cause I actually think it's important that we do, even though there are other important battles to be had.

A few months ago, I had the task of sifting through a big pile of CVs for a temp position my company had: after sifting I remembered a show I'd heard on R4 about how people with obviously ethnic minority names struggled to get interviews, so I went through them again - and would you believe, every black or brown looking name was in the 'no' pile. It was pretty stark. But I also think it's probably a very natural thing to happen - you go with the familiar, the names you recognise, the people like you.

I expect everyone does it - in the people they hire, the people they choose to hang out with, the books they read, the art they consume, etc etc... and unless you're conscious about it and adjusting for it constantly - and that's always going to be an imperfect process with it's own problems and biases - it adds up to minorities being excluded in a thousand different ways. It adds up to us all being a bit racist. How do we talk about that without getting people's backs up though?

With difficulty, ime. But what you outline there can be a start - if you can give an example of a situation in which you have had to confront your unconscious biases, then you don't come across as superior.

In a work situation, it can be easier because you can propose concrete solutions. EG for your example there, an easy fix is that the person evaluating the CVs has names taken off before they are given them.

 

[belboid]

No, I think they're wrong to take issue with it. But they do, which means it is divisive in the definitional sense i.e. that it tends to cause disagreement. That remains the case notwithstanding that disagreement is predicated on a misunderstanding, or even bigotry. I think it's a weakness of the slogan that even people who agree with the literal message are able to misinterpret the meaning.

Dear god what awful liberalism. It’s not a dinner party debate it’s actually a matter of life and death for many people. Which means being blunt and direct, not toadying around to gain the approval of people who won’t join you in the actual struggle.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I hardly ever stray into the politics forums for the sake of my blood pressure, but editor keeps dragging topics in here, which should be in the news and politics forum.

This was never going to spark a long discussion about the artistry of a 4 minute dance number on a talent show, was it ?

Me too mate. P&P has always been controlled.

 

[8ball]

This was never going to spark a long discussion about the artistry of a 4 minute dance number on a talent show, was it ?

I don't think it was the artistry as such which inspired so many complaints.

 

[killer b]

Did you have criteria you used while sifting that you later found yourself to have deviated from?

That wasn't the part of the post I'm interested in discussing tbh, ta.

 

[Athos]

Dear god what awful liberalism. It’s not a dinner party debate it’s actually a matter of life and death for many people. Which means being blunt and direct, not toadying around to gain the approval of people who won’t join you in the actual struggle.

Lol. I've not tried to gain anyone's approval. I just pointed out that, whether or not you or I like it, the slogan is demonstrably, literally divisive, which is a weakness. I've certainly not made any excuses for those who take issue with it; I've criticised them in each of my posts on the topic.

 

[Reno]

I don't think it was the artistry as such which inspired so many complaints.

Obviously it was the politics. I have complaints about the artistry, but it's probably not worth getting into.