And so the best approach is to divide the victims into privileged and non privileged groups. Terrible idea.
Dance troupe Diversity's Black Lives Matter performance receives 24,000 complaints
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And so the best approach is to divide the victims into privileged and non privileged groups. Terrible idea.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Of course you do, but it absolutely invites someone to say, "all lives matter" (and they do) or "white lives matter" (and they do). For many many people, the idea that you are "allowed" to say one and not the other is itself racist, it's intuitively not fair. And yes there are are more thoughtful ways of getting into this which show why these statements are not equivalent etc but that's not what slogans do, they are non-thoughtful, direct-access demands and a good one is important. For me BLM fails the test, it alienates loads of people who should be right on side. Just my experience.
souljacker
innit
And for the record, that is definitely not what I've said.
You seem quite keen to attack people who are allies to the cause. Not sure that really helps either.
8ball
1,200 lights
I'm not sure the meaning was so hard to grasp. I think a lot of that talk was disingenuous.
I should have left this ages ago. But you made a weird point that black victims of police brutality are ‘just getting on with their lives’ but white ones ‘are asking for it’.
souljacker
innit
No I didn't.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
But that isn’t what is overwhelmingly meant by ‘White privilege’ so he’s creating a straw man. White privilege is not having to worry about whether the police are going to stop you, whether that landlord will give you that rental, just because you’re black. It’s not forgetting about racism it’s not being subject to that racism. I still don’t like the term ‘privilege’ because it is right that that is/should be a right for all, but there’s still a need for some similar such term.
ALL white people do escape that risk, and ALL black people are subject to it. Of course some people of either colour are much more affected than others, and it is contradictory as some black people can benefit from racism while most white people also lose out as racism divides us and makes us all weaker. But going ‘not all white people’ or thinking black lives matter is a divisive slogan marks you out as a straightforward reactionary, not someone trying to apply ‘nuance’
Almost as if the history of white victims of police brutality is agreed with, or erased.
Surely the problem is hierarchy and the police, rather than building a hierarchy of victims?
Athos
Well-Known Member
I've not seen the data so I can't say for certain whether or not that's true. (I don't know if you have any empirical evidence?) But, maybe a reason you don't hear about them is it's in the interests of the class that controls the media to peddle a narrative that police killings are the result of something that can be eradicated e.g. police racism, rather than the fact that they are intrinsic to a system that exists to protect the 'haves' from the 'have nots', at any cost.
8ball
1,200 lights
That would seem rather reliant on the police never dealing with their racism issue, and the media always reporting in a predictably corrupt manner.
Which describes things well enough, but seems a bit precarious in terms of a system you'd build on purpose.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I know it's comforting to think so but that's not my impression just on a personal basis, people I know (family etc) who are resolutely non-thinky about politics and definitely look on someone like Tommy Robinson as an obvious wanker were muttering about this to me, which I found depressing.
Athos
Well-Known Member
The state don't require the police to address their racism in any meaningful way, and the press will always reflect the interests of those who control it i.e. capitalists.
8ball
1,200 lights
A 'just so' story.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Whilst I agree with you that it ought not to be controversial, it's undeniably divisive insofar as it's the subject of much disagreement. Maybe not with what's explicitly included, but with what they perceive - wrongly, in my opinion - as having been excluded.
8ball
1,200 lights
I really didn't see much of this. It kind of made me wonder what was different this time, after so many killings.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I think you'll find the preponderance of vopb have been working class, be they black, white, brown, yellow or blue. People like mark saunders very much atypical. But being as so many vopb, out of all proportion to their percentage of the population, are black why can't you just agree that until black lives matter all lives are diminished in value? One step a time, mm
Athos
Well-Known Member
Do you disagree with either limb of it?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
How the journalist changed his spots
Yossarian
Get thee behind me, Santa
8ball
1,200 lights
I disagree with the implication that it is by design, or that either state of affairs has particularly high long-term stability.
And I also disagree that the drawing of attention to police brutality against racial minorities is getting anyone off the hook re: wider issues, such as the levels of economic inequality in the States.
I've heard heaps of discussions about systems of reproduction of injustice recently as part of discussion of these issues.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Gotta be honest I think that's really awful and I wouldn't show it to the people I'm thinking of.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You have to be very careful talking about abstractions such as 'the state' and ascribing them personhood in that way. You can quickly fall into essentially meaningless statements.
Which bits of the state, and at what times? I can think of plenty of reasons why 'the state' might want the police to police in a non-racist way. Motivations could range from keeping order and keeping capital happy to straightforwardly seeking to establish social justice as a good in its own right. Depends which bits of the state you're talking about and at what time you're talking about it.
I can also think of reasons certain forces within the state might think differently, but there isn't a simple 'person' acting as 'the state' in an unambiguous way.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I think it's opportunistic for the time being, rather than a plan from the outset with any longevity. And the fact that it's not a 100% sucessful diversion doesn't mean it's not a useful narrative for that class to peddle.
Reno
The In Kraut
Thank you for a perfect example of what's wrong with identity politics.
That is no way to educate people or how to win them over. You don't convince someone by hectoring them, by shaming them, by calling them dumb, by cancelling them. I'm convinced that many people who consider themselves as not particularly political or who simply are poorly educated in issues of race, gender, sexuality, etc are put off by the tone of the discussion. Those people who were sitting on the fence, then are easy pickings for the alt right and for populists. Identity politics is narcissism dressed up as activism. It just reassures those who shout at others on social media of their own moral superiority and that's all it does.
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8ball
1,200 lights
Yeah, I posted the cartoon above because people seem to instantly get it, and it's just two panes.
It's also the gentlest way I've seen of saying "it's you that's being the dick here".
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
What? Sounds like making excuses for bigots and buffoons.
I find it odd that BLM was born in the US and spread to the UK some 4,000+ miles away yet the same concern has never been considered for those living in eg Equatorial Guinea. It’s almost as if black lives don’t matter at all unless there’s a racially divisive angle to be gained by those seeking it.
8ball
1,200 lights
I think something like that is going on, tbf, amongst a bunch of other things.
There is capital to be found in corporate virtue-signalling.
A lot of companies that were pushing the #blacklivesmatter message quietly dropped it once the anti-capitalist stance became clear.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, it was a simplification, but it suffices in this context i.e. where we're talking about the current US administration, to assume that, in the round, it's essentially a tool of capital.
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