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critique of loon theories around banking/money creation/the federal reserve

Yes, and this flow of money around banks is smoothed out by overnight interbank lending, which allows individual banks within the system to balance their books.
But what LD doesn't appear to appreciate is that when banks make loans, that is where the money is created. The money is created from nothing.

My position hasn't changed an iota!

The High St. banks cannot create cash, or credits in BofE accounts. That is the money that is transferred through interbank lending. That is the 3% of our money. The 97% of our money is High St. bank money, created from nothing in the form of their loans. The reason they get away with this is because we only withdraw 3% or our money in cash.

It's really a source of confusion to consider multiple high street banks and the interbank lending market - they like it like this!

I strongly recommend combining all the High St banks into one for the purposes of understanding money creation. Then, you have the BofE creating hard cash (notes) and then our one high st bank (Barclloyds THSBC) loaning out money created from nothing, much like an online casino can lend you chips it has created from nothing, after all, you are going to simply transfer them to other players.
 
God this is tedious.

As expected and predicted, you weren't able to even address the question asked of you in my previous post, here it is again just in case you think you can hide from it again:-

I'm going to ask you a question now which I know you cannot and will not answer:-

If you still disagree that those liabilities on NR's balance sheet are in no way whatsoever being used to fund the assets on that balance sheet, answer me this, why do those liabilities exist? what are they for? why would NR agree to take on those liabilities if they were not getting something in return for them (i.e. the ability to fund assets/loans)?

Wrong, I don't think I've promised to answer your questions LD, sorry.

Well yes you did actually here and requests from you to do so by others are here and here - I presume you've looked at them and realised you can't touch them as you don't have a leg to stand on

Here they are - if you're so sure of your position, address them rather than hide from them:-

love detective said:
and if they can create cash out of thin air why is it possible for bank's to even make losses in the first place

why do they have to go to the state for money when they can just conjure it up

how can a bank run out of something it can create from nothing out of thin air

why do interbank & wholesale lending markets exist if bank's can just create the money they need out of nothing

why can a bank get into a position where it cannot settle its liabilities when those liabilities are just invented in the first place, they don't really exist apparently

why would the state lend a bank £30bn in emergency funding so that it could meet its liabilities/obligations when those liabilities apparently aren't real and were just invented

why do bank's bother lending in the first place if they can just magic the money out of nothing - surely be much easier to just magic your money out of thin air than going to all that trouble of lending & borrowing

and finally, if according to jazz the accounting entries are the reality - this surely means that it is impossible for a bank's financial statements to not reflect reality. Why then are hundreds of millions of pounds spent each year by banks auditing their financial statements to ensure they reflect reality. Why do bank's continually have to retrospectively restate their accounts to correct them. If they are reality then surely it would be impossible for a bank's financial statements to not reflect reality, because they are reality - so there can be no disconnect according to Jazz. So even if a dog was made chief accountant in a bank and hammered all manner of nonsense into its ledger with its mucky paws, the accounts wouldn't be wrong, because the accounts are reality

and so on and so on......
 
Well yes you did actually here and requests from you to do so by others are here and here - I presume you've looked at them and realised you can't touch them as you don't have a leg to stand on

Here they are - if you're so sure of your position, address them rather than hide from them:-
There is a measure of self-awareness from jazzz in the first link there:

"both disturbingly simple and fantastically weird "
 
It's pretty revealing that Jazz doesn't want to talk about value - easy to think you can create money out of nowhere if in your mad conceit it's not related to value and the social power to appropriate it. But as it's only empty numbers then, why's he so bothered about how much or little is created and by what process?
 
I responded to LBJ in some detail. :rolleyes:

Please stop your silly heckling from the sidelines. If you have a comment or question to make about money, then do that.
You responded after my post reminding you of your promise to respond which you had previously denied doing.

And 'silly heckling'? Lovely bit of casual sexism there, Jazzz. Please don't talk to me like that again, as I have previously asked you.

The comments I have about money are that love detective has explained this patiently and in some detail, and I am learning a lot from him. If you cared to pay attention to his posts, you would as well.
 
But for that money to do anything, it has to leave the account. As soon as it does leave the acount, the bank must fund that loss of a liability by replacing it with another liability.

I've been in this exact position with Jazz before (it always ends up at this point, as the logic of the discussion dictates that it will). He was forced to admit that his grand theory only held true if the person who owned the account that the loan had credited money to, didn't actually do anything with the money! i.e. it just sat in the bank account and was never used, never transferred anywhere else, never used to buy anything with. That's the only way he could square his theory with the truth.

So in essence, boiled down, what Jazzz's astonishing point in all this is that as long as you never want to do anything with the money 'created' from a loan, then banks do indeed create that money out of thin air. This in fact is true but so utterly ridiculous and devoid of any explanatory power about how the credit system actually works. That he has to rely on an exception to the norm, that would never (or very rarely) happen in real life to support his general theory of money & credit tells us pretty much all we need to know about the usefulness of Jazz thought. It's the equivalent of saying that I definitely can make some magic beans that if sown in the ground will grow a huge beanstalk, but they only work if you never use them. If you try to use them they won't work. But i definitely can make them. And they definitely work as long as you don't want to make use of them.

He even tried to attempt to argue that people all over the world were taking out loans, and then leaving the money 'created' by the loan in their bank account and not doing anything with it, but somehow they were rationally going around taking out loans regardless (while paying interest on the loan amount due) - it was pretty much the pinacle of his lunacy (in this area)
 
Three paragraphs, yet these are the only words he will read.

Indeed. And I can see absolutely why all these money loons believe what they do - because the snippets of information that are fed to them about how the money & credit system works, taken in isolation and totally out of context and in a situation that would never happen in real life, can indeed point to the 'feeling' that banks do indeed create money out of thin air. And that is enough for them, they are not interested in actually finding out how the system does actually work from the perspective of a 'disinterested' inquirer - they only need enough cropped and distorted misunderstood information to back up the conclusion that they had already made before even looking at the thing. Science!
 
the snippets of information that are fed to them... taken in isolation and totally out of context
This is a rather common theme with Jazzz. The great irony of most CT loons is that while they claim to look at "the bigger picture" they do precisely the opposite. Nothing has context, nothing has links, no politics, no history. The world is just a black and white place where everything fits into neat little categories. BAD pharma, GOOD alternative therapy. BAD government, GOOD freeman etc.
 
This is a rather common theme with Jazzz. The great irony of most CT loons is that while they claim to look at "the bigger picture" they do precisely the opposite.

Yep exactly

As an example - here is an article which explains rather well the process of money & credit creation (from a fairly unlikely source to be fair)

Now taken overall this article is correct and explains the situation quite well - however you can see how reading say the first half of it could give someone who doesn't really care about understanding something properly the impression that money is created out of thin air by banks and that they don't have to fund the loans that they make to others.

But reading further on, when we get to the point where the person taking out the loan actually wants to do something with that money (the point made by LBJ a few posts above in his response to Jazz), we see that the situation is somewhat different. And that ultimately the bank doesn't create the money out of thin air, but effectively mediates a position between the person they are lending to and the party that they ultimately fund the loan from (this is the case, despite the articles rather strong usage of the phrase 'loans create deposits' - while narrowly and tecnically true, if the borrower wants to use the 'money' created for anything, it has to be funded from somewhere, so it remains in essence that 'deposits enables the use of loans')

This article explains fully the whole process of the initial creation of loan to usage of the money 'created' by that loan. Jazzz has continually focussed on the first part only, the accounting entries that setup the initial asset & liabilities, but he has never been able to explain or even address the next step - what happens when someone wants to make use of that 'money'. The important phrase used in the article is the 'withdrawl liability' of the bank. i.e. what happens when someone actually wants to make use of the money 'created' by the loan. Jazzz can't focus on this because to do so would force him to admit that the bank needs to fund the loan position created, meaning banks don't create money out of thin air, they merely circulate & mediate other parties' activities

I suspect it's accounts like this that give Jazzz and his ilk the notions that they do have (as the language used in articles like this can often give people who don't quite understand it the idea that it is saying something different to what it is, or alternatively they know what it's saying but selectively take bits out of context to give an altogether different picture) - it's just a pity they don't have any desire to actually understand the truth of things when seeking out their truths

I've copied the full article out below in the next post so the whole context can be seen (and bolded the bits that Jazzz and his crew never address/mention - if you read the article up until the first bit i've bolded, it can quite easily when taken out of context support the crackpot lunacy that Jazz spouts on here). The article also gives a good overview of the need to raise money for capital requirements on the loans and reserve requirements for the deposits that are created as a result of the loan/deposit process, something that is usually left out in these discussions as it just confuses things further)

Article to Follow in Next Post
 
article said:
When someone says "loans create deposits," usually that means at least that the marginal impact of new lending will be to create a new asset and a new liability for the banking system. But in our system it's actually a bit more complicated than that.

A bank makes a loan to a borrowing customer. This simultaneously, creates a credit and a liability for both the bank and the borrower. The borrower is credited with a deposit in his account and incurs a liability for the amount of the loan. The bank now has an asset equal to the amount of the loan and a liability equal to the deposit. All four of these accounting entries represent an increase in their respective categories: the bank's assets and liabilities have grown, and so has the borrower's.

It's worth noting that at least two more types of liabilities are also created at this moment: a reserve requirement is created and a capital requirement is created. These aren't standard financial liabilities. They are regulatory liabilities.

The reserve requirement arises with the creation of the deposit (the bank's liability), while the capital requirement arises with the creation of the loan (the bank's asset). So loans create capital requirements, deposits create reserve requirements.

Banks are required to have a 10 percent reserve for deposits. (For simplicity's sake we're going to ignore some technical aspects of reserve requirements that actually make this number smaller than 10 percent.) Which means that a bank incurs a reserve requirement of $10 for every $100 deposit it takes on. Since loans create deposits, a $100 loan gives rise to a $10 required reserve liability.

To be considered well-capitalized, a bank in the U.S. must currently have a 10 percent combined Tier One and Tier Two Capital ratio (we'll ignore the more complicated angles for capital requirements also). What this means is that the $100 bank loan gives rise to a regulatory capital liability of $10 of Tier One/Two Capital.

What this means is that the $100 loan that created a $100 deposit, actually created a $100 asset for the bank (the loan) and $120 of liabilities (the deposit plus the required reserves and capital). That might sound like a pretty bad deal for a bank. But it's not quite as bad as you might think.

Let's imagine a bank that is starting off from scratch. Scratch Bank lends $100 to Mr. Parker. It does this by crediting Mr. Parker's deposit account at Scratch Bank with $100. The bank must now immediately figure out how to meet its two new liabilities: its reserve requirement and its capital requirement.

To raise the $10 of required capital, Scratch Bank will have to sell shares, raise equity-like debt or retain earnings. Since Scratch Bank just got started, the only way to create immediate earnings would be to charge a ten percent origination fee to Mr. Parker. The last option isn't really as outlandish as it sounds (although 10 percent is way too high). Lots of loans come with versions of origination fees that can go to help banks settle their capital requirements. A $10 fee that is kept as retained earnings would completely satisfy the capital requirement.

This is actually quite extraordinary. The bank is meeting its capital requirement by discounting a deposit that it created out of its own loan. Which is to say, it is meeting the capital requirement with nothing other than its own money creation power. This makes sense because, as we will see in a moment, the effect of it is to reduce the liability of the bank without reducing its asset. What it really does is allow the bank to have an asset that is greater than the deposit liability it created.

Note that the way this would be done, in most circumstances, would be to net the $10 fee directly out of the $100. So the actual deposit would be just $90 dollars. The bank's reserve requirement would decrease by $1 dollar because of this accounting. Which means that the $100 loan really creates $119 of liabilities for the bank: a $9 reserve requirement plus a $10 capital requirement.

How can the bank meet the requirement for $9 of reserves? It could try to attract a new customer, let's call him Mr. Christie, who would deposit at least $10 dollars. This would create a liability for the bank of $10 as well as a cash balance (an asset) of $10. The bank would need to use $1 dollar of this as a reserve for Mr. Christie's account and could use the rest as the reserve for Mr. Parker's account. (There's no capital requirement for a cash asset, so the reserve requirement is the only one that applies.)

The bank could also borrow the reserves from another bank in what's known as Fed Funds market. This is the unsecured overnight lending market in which banks with excess reserves lend to banks with deficient reserves. Basically, instead of getting Mr. Christie to deposit $10 in Scratch Bank, Scratch Bank would borrow that deposit from Establishment Savings Bank instead. Right now the Federal Reserve targets the interest rate in this market as between 0 and 0.25 percent. In other words, acquiring the $9 of reserves is easy as pie.

Now here's what happens when Mr. Parker writes a check on his account to pay for a new window for his shop (it was broken by someone who wanted to stimulate the local economy, of course.) Scratch Bank will need to transfer $90 dollars to the window maker's bank through the payment system of the Federal Reserve. Scratch Bank, however, doesn't have anything like $90. All it has is $9 dollars in borrowed reserves plus $10 in retained earnings.

The bank can't use those $10 in retained earnings, however, because it needs them to meet its capital requirement. Even though the withdrawal of the $90 from the bank account extinguishes the need for a reserve requirement against the deposit, the loan still remains outstanding. Which, in turn, means the capital requirement remains in place.

So it needs to raise $81 from someone — more depositors, the interbank market, or perhaps money market funds willing to lend against some collateral. The only collateral it has is the loan to Parker, which is worth $100. After a haircut of a couple of points, however, raising $81 shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Note that the capital requirement has done its job, even though it was funded with bank created money. Because the bank effectively lent out only $90 dollars while creating a $100 loan, it is able to borrow on the collateralized market to fund its liability when the deposit created by the loan is drawn. It can borrow the $90 it needs to satisfy its reserve and withdrawal liability, take a pretty steep discount and still make a profit on the spread.

In other words, the effect of the origination fee is the same as if it actually raised outside capital. If instead of funding the loan with a fee, the bank met the capital requirement by sell $10 worth of equity, it would have had a $100 liability, a $100 asset, a $10 reserve requirement and a $10 capital requirement. When the money was withdrawn, it would owe $100 to the receiving bank. This could be paid with the $10 raised in equity, and $90 in borrowed funds. It doesn't really matter whether the capital requirement is met through outside capital, fee income or a combination of both (which is how it is done in real life).

Of course, for this to work, the market has to believe that the value of the loan to Mr. Parker is actually worth more than the $90. If counter-parties believe there is a significant chance that Mr. Parker will default on his loan, it could be worth less than $90. In that case, Scratch Bank would be forced to find other sources of funding — new investors, a government bailout—or default on its obligations to the window maker's bank.

But let's say it does work. What we have here is a functioning bank, a demonstration of how the basic infrastructure of banking is not built on a foundation of a bunch of cash that is then lent out. It's built on the loans themselves, with capital and reserves raised to meet regulatory requirements.

And for be benefit of Jazzz - here is a post I wrote well over a year ago outlining the difference between the accounting entries that are created when the loan is initially setup and the flow of funds to fund the position when the loan is actually drawn on. It matches the above description almost exactly. I made the point at the time that these initial accounting entries were not the full picture, and not the most important part either. Jazz however doesn't understand that there is more to the picture than these initial accounting entries. There are real flows that have to happen for that money to be used as money. Until then it's nothing but magic beans that will only work if you dont use them. Crazy.
 
You responded after my post reminding you of your promise to respond which you had previously denied doing.
No. You are simply wrong. You confuse LD and LBJ, fairly clear distinctions between posters on this thread. You confuse time. One post where you make such a mistake is one thing. To come back at me after I point it out is ridiculous. You have no other contribution to make except fawn pathetically over my opponent. Go away. Bother me on other threads.
 
And for be benefit of Jazzz - here is a post I wrote well over a year ago outlining the difference between the accounting entries that are created when the loan is initially setup and the flow of funds to fund the position when the loan is actually drawn on. It matches the above description almost exactly.
Nonsense.

How do these 'funds flow' if not by change in accounting entries?

Do little mice carry the money?

:facepalm:

I think I understand your mindset now.

You seem to think that what I (and others) have been saying when we say that banks create money out of nothing is that they have an infinite supply and if they wished could create enough to make anyone especially themselves rich and never go bust... :facepalm:

We've established that banks create money out of nothing when they make loans: they simply expand both sides of their balance sheet.

THEN the question is: how do they cover the loan being drawn on? Because to do that, they need cash: either hard cash, should the loanee want cash: or credits in their BofE account (stop me if there is anything you don't agree with there).

So my question to you, the exact one I asked earlier and you couldn't answer, is this:

Do banks need enough cash reserves to cover the loan being made, or cash reserves to cover their entire demand liabilities?
 
Jazzz can't focus on this because to do so would force him to admit that the bank needs to fund the loan position created, meaning banks don't create money out of thin air, they merely circulate & mediate other parties' activities
We've also established that your definition of 'funded' is highly bizarre. Your definition says that 'owner's equity', as a liability, 'funds' the assets on the balance sheet.
 
No. You are simply wrong. You confuse LD and LBJ, fairly clear distinctions between posters on this thread. You confuse time. One post where you make such a mistake is one thing. To come back at me after I point it out is ridiculous. You have no other contribution to make except fawn pathetically over my opponent. Go away. Bother me on other threads.

Is it just me or is there a nasty streak of barely concealed sexism running through this post?
 
Absolutely no engagement with anything of substance posted above once again Jazzz, just a few more attempts to conflate & confuse the hammering you've received, plus a fair amount of backtracking now you've read the article I linked to and realised there's been a substantial chunk missing from your own understandings of how things work

Banks can definitely create money out of thin air, but only to the extent that everyone agrees not to use that money for anything (but still agree to pay interest on the money 'borrowed') - that's your loon theory in a nutshell Jazz - sounds kind of daft when it's distilled down to its essence doesn't it. At least you now agree that bank's don't really create money out of thin air in any meaningful sense of the phrase. It's like saying that petrol cars can run without petrol and this is definitely true, but they won't work if you try and use them, but if you don't use them they can definitely run without petrol.

Busted flush
 
We've also established that your definition of 'funded' is highly bizarre. Your definition says that 'owner's equity', as a liability, 'funds' the assets on the balance sheet.

You are a muppet aren't you

If the equity of a business was withdrawn (through say a share capital buyback or special dividend) an equivalent amount of assets would need to be liquidiated & sold to effect that withdrawl (or just paid out if there was enough liquid funds already) - therefore the continued existence of the equity in the business funds an equivalent amount of assets of that company

It's yet another banal truism that you cannot get your head around - the equity of a company helps fund the ownership of assets in that company

What do you think happens when a company is setup and its shareholders put money into it and then invest that money in business assets? The equity has funded those assets. That you can't get your head around this is incredible.

Jazz Ltd is setup with a £1,000 capital injection from David Icke. Jazz Ltd uses that money to buy a Piano. At that point the company's balance sheet consists of an Asset of a £1,000 Piano and Equity of £1,000 Share Capital/Equity. The Equity has funded the Asset of the company. If you wanted to buy more equipment but David Icke didn't trust you enough to put more equity into the company, you might borrow another £1,000 of a friend, this would then be used to buy more equipment. Your balance sheet would then show £2,000 of assets, £1,000 of liabilities and £1,000 of Equity. The Equity & Liabilities of the company fund the assets of that company. If there is a threat of the withdrawl of any of your equity or liability of that company you would be forced to sell equipment to pay it back (or replace it with alternative funding - either in the shape of equity or borrowings). This by the way is exactly what happened with Northern Rock, it was uable to continue to roll over its short term market based funding (which was funding its long term mortgage loans) when the markets froze and therefore had to call on state aid to replace that lost funding You of course have argued up until recently when you were exposed, that banks don't need to fund themselves at all however.

I can't boil this down any simpler than that. If you're still having problems I'd suggest getting an Accounting For Dummies book and reading up on the basics.
 
No. You are simply wrong. You confuse LD and LBJ, fairly clear distinctions between posters on this thread. You confuse time. One post where you make such a mistake is one thing. To come back at me after I point it out is ridiculous. You have no other contribution to make except fawn pathetically over my opponent. Go away. Bother me on other threads.

I don't think she has done any of those things Jazzz.
 
As well as the other stuff there's a very definite whiff of go away little girl, the men are talking off jazzz isn't there?

Not sure of that, I can see how you could read it that way but I think he would have adopted the same bitchy tone with a male poster.
 
Not sure of that, I can see how you could read it that way but I think he would have adopted the same bitchy tone with a male poster.
Not sure, he's done it with equationgirl over the course of three long threads now - he even accused her above of fawning over male poster ffs.
 
Not sure of that, I can see how you could read it that way but I think he would have adopted the same bitchy tone with a male poster.

I don't think so. I've made similar points to EG on this thread, and I've said that I think LD knows his stuff - yet I've not been accused of 'fawning over' him, and he's not dismissed me in the same way. He reeks of it IMO.
 
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Not sure, he's done it with equationgirl over the course of three long threads now - he even accused her above of fawning over male poster ffs.

I kind of interpreted it as the usual bitchiness but you may have a point - Jazzz would know for sure.
 
I don't think so. I've made similar points to EG on this thread, and I've said that I think LD knows his stuff - yet I've not been accused of 'fawning over' him, and he's not dismissed me in the same way. He reeks of it IMO.

Fair enough - was just going by a couple of posts and I haven't been as involved in the thread as others - just been popping in now and then after a straight answer from him regarding a couple of these money-related things.

frogwoman said:
She's not stupid and she hasn't been doing anything like what he says, she's a highly intelligent woman.

She can read in hex, apparently.

3B29
 
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