Criminalising Pregnant Mothers who Drink

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I'm surprised there's no thread on this. The whole world is watching this currently go through out courts system.

Mothers who drink during pregnancy could face legal proceedings following a test case which will decide whether a child born with foetal alcohol syndrome can be awarded compensation.

On Wednesday a council in the North West of England will argue at London's Court of Appeal that a child born with serious health defects as a result of her mother’s drinking habits should be considered a victim of crime.

If successful, it could pave the way for drinking during pregnancy becoming a criminal offence."

Seems to me to be very worrying.

1) If taking part in risky behaviour during pregnancy could lead to prosecution, where would you draw the line. Blue cheese? Prawn linguine? A jog around the park?

2) Presumably any woman that's going to take her child to full term wants that child to be healthy, and this is an issue of addiction and lack of support. We already know that the prospect of being prosecuted does nothing for those who are addicted.

The child, who cannot be named, was diagnosed with foetal alcohol syndrome (FAS) at birth, a condition which can cause which facial deformities, problems with physical and emotional development, and poor memory or a short attention span.

In 2011, a hearing ruled that the mother's drinking was "directly attributable to a crime of violence" and so the child was eligible for a payout.

In the case of the six-year-old, the mother is said to have "consumed grossly excessive quantities of alcohol" and had been "using drugs".

What do you think the chances are of the courts finding in favour of the plaintiff? Do you think this is going to lead to criminalisation of some pregnant women?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...ce-legal-proceedings-following-test-case.html

 

[8ball]

 

[trashpony]

I have considered starting a thread several times and thought better of it. Yes it would lead to criminalisation of some pregnant women and is an absolutely disastrously bad idea to tinker with the concept of women's bodily autonomy.

 

[Looby]

There's a very long thread about it. http://www.urban75.net/forums/index.php?threads/Foetal-alcohol-syndrome.326017/

 

[Citizen66]

This debate leads straight back to whether a foetus qualifies as a person or not so will likely resurrect the ethics around abortion. Again.

 

[Supine]

A woman at work was smoking while pregnant last year

Which is something my mum did before having me

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

There's a very long thread about it. http://www.urban75.net/forums/index.php?threads/Foetal-alcohol-syndrome.326017/

Argh. I did a search on it and everything. Apologies.

 

[trashpony]

There's a very long thread about it. http://www.urban75.net/forums/index.php?threads/Foetal-alcohol-syndrome.326017/

I hadn't seen that one

 

[killer b]

It's a really fucking stupid idea which should be resisted. With weapons if necessary.

 

[Looby]

It was a while ago but surprise surprise ISTR it got pretty heated!

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

What of the women that get blotto before they know they are pregnant, as many women do?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is a public health issue, but should not be a criminal issue. Wanker council appears to be motivated primarily by the desire to get money off the woman.

 

[trashpony]

It was a while ago but surprise surprise ISTR it got pretty heated!

Presumably why no one has resurrected it

 

[8ball]

What of the women that get blotto before they know they are pregnant, as many women do?

If there is a chance of becoming pregnant at any time they must keep themselves as a pure and holy vessel, on pain of prosecution.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

When I heard this on the radio three things sprang to mind.

Firstly that the council were trying to get criminal injuries compensation for the child as a means of defraying some of the costs of care. Providing for a child's care shouldn't depend on proof of a mother's criminal culpability; it is something we should do as a decent society.

Secondly, that the mother in question was consuming alcohol at a level and in a pattern, which made it clear that addiction compromised any notion of her making free choices. Again a decent society would offer care and support not threat and criminalisation.

Lastly, that given the grounds for the court case (i.e. the fetus is a separate, living person who the mother is poisoning), those who would like to limit women's autonomy over their own bodies will be looking at the case as a potential bandwagon to be jumped on.

All in all it's a disgusting and dangerous idea.


Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If there is a chance of becoming pregnant at any time they must keep themselves as a pure and holy vessel, on pain of prosecution.

From puberty to menopause.

 

[Fez909]

What we need are pregnancy camps where women who cannot be trusted to create viable offspring are interned, away from temptation and vice. Alcohol and other impurities would be unavailable and they would be able to do menial work to pay for their lodgings, helping to reduce unemployment and reducing the discrimination pregnant women face in the workplace.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

When I heard this on the radio three things sprang to mind.

Firstly that the council were trying to get criminal injuries compensation for the child as a means of defraying some of the costs of care. Providing for a child's care shouldn't depend on proof of a mother's criminal culpability; it is something we should do as a decent society.

Secondly, that the mother in question was consuming alcohol at a level and in a pattern, which made it clear that addiction compromised any notion of her making free choices. Again a decent society would offer care and support not threat and criminalisation.

Lastly, that given the grounds for the court case (i.e. the fetus is a separate, living person who the mother is poisoning), those who would like to limit women's autonomy over their own bodies will be looking at the case as a potential bandwagon to be jumped on.

All in all it's a disgusting and dangerous idea.


Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Yep, and it's worrying that such things are coming about primarily motivated by desire for compensation. Compensation requires the attachment of blame to someone. As you say, a decent society makes provisions whether blame can be attached to someone or not.

 

[red & green]

Think the only issue now in the court of appeal is personage of a Foetus which is prob why BPAS are 3 party interveners in the case- this is ridiculous and discriminatory - also has implications regarding abortion - as said above prob to do with la cuts but exactly how much public money is being spent on this ridiculous case?

Women are not incubators

 

[andysays]

This is a ridiculous and unwelcome development for all the reasons that have already been mentioned.

But there's one bit quoted in @FabricLiveBaby!s original post which I don't understand

In 2011, a hearing ruled that the mother's drinking was "directly attributable to a crime of violence" and so the child was eligible for a payout

What does this mean, and how is it relevant?

It appears to mean that the mother was drinking, and the foetus was damaged, because of a criminal act carried out by a third party on the mother, and that the third party is therefore the one who is ultimately responsible.

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick

 

[Looby]

Aren't they saying that the drinking was the crime of violence against the foetus or have I got it completely wrong too?

 

[DotCommunist]

its basically another stealth way to tell a woman that the minute theres a zygote she no longer owns her own body

 

[andysays]

Aren't they saying that the drinking was the crime of violence against the foetus or have I got it completely wrong too?

That would make more sense on a superficial level, but isn't "attributable" the wrong word if that's what they're trying to say?

I'm struggling to think of what would be the right one. Maybe it will come to me in a minute...

ETA: equivalent to a crime of violence, perhaps

 

[Looby]

That would make more sense on a superficial level, but isn't "attributable" the wrong word if that's what they're trying to say?

I'm struggling to think of what would be the right one. Maybe it will come to me in a minute...

Yeah, it sounds wrong badly worded if either of our guesses is right. We're probably both wrong.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, it sounds wrong badly worded if either of our guesses is right. We're probably both wrong.

Betrays bad thinking, imo. They don't quite know what they want to get her on.

 

[andysays]

Yeah, it sounds wrong badly worded if either of our guesses is right. We're probably both wrong.

Given the importance of precise use of language in a legal judgement, it's disappointing that more care wasn't taken over the wording, especially if a couple of amateurs* like us can pick up on it from a casual reading.

* I am not a lawyer; I'm assuming you aren't either

 

[andysays]

Betrays bad thinking, imo. They don't quite know what they want to get her on.

maybe there's the basis there for a legal challenge

 

[Looby]

Given the importance of precise use of language in a legal judgement, it's disappointing that more care wasn't taken over the wording, especially if a couple of amateurs* like us can pick up on it from a casual reading.

* I am not a lawyer; I'm assuming you aren't either

No but I'm pretty sure there's no third party.

 

[andysays]

No but I'm pretty sure there's no third party.

I think it would be pretty difficult for anyone to successfully argue that someone's alcoholism is a direct result of/attributable to an attack that someone else made on them.

Edited to remove attempted joke and to clarify what I actually mean. Apologies to sparklefish

 

[Looby]

I think it would be pretty difficult for anyone to successfully argue that my alcoholism is a direct result of/attributable to that time you attacked me (luckily for you)

Eh?