Covid related agoraphobia

[Athos]

Yeah, I don't think there's a hard distinction between 'rational' and 'irrational' fears so, in that sense, saying 'be rational' doesn't help (I'm not having a go Athos, it's not that kind of thread). There are only our own experiences, histories and ways of processing the world. Sometimes it's more about nudging these around and even turning the odd assumption on its head to make a bit of progress.

Again, I'm not suggesting there's some easy way to feel better FoD, just talking about me, me, me. In fact changing the way you think and feel about something like Covid - or anything - is really hard.

I know you're not having a go, but, to clarify: I wasn't simply saying "be rational"; I know that won't stop the anxiety. The point was more around pathologising fear; anxiety is only a problem when it's misplaced and/or out of proportion (reasonable and proportionate fears are what keep us safe). So a first step in the OPs situation would be to scope the problem i.e. to establish what fears are objectively reasonable, in the OP's circumstances (e.g. underlying health, local infection rates, vaccination status, age, etc.), and trying to tackle anything over and above that.

 

[RubyToogood]

No, Athos absolutely has it.

I'm talking about creating more of a separation of "decisions about engaging in activities" from "feelings about engaging in activities" by looking at and sitting with the feelings. Those overwhelming panic feelings are very powerful, and it's counterintuitive not to do everything possible to avoid and run away from them (including mentally running away from them). But this feeds them and makes them stronger.

If one can float through the feelings and accept them, one can observe that after a while they reduce. Over time by doing this repeatedly they subside significantly.

So in theory it's possible to do exposure therapy without actually putting yourself into the feared situation, because what you're exposing yourself to is your own anxiety and not the situation as such. So if you can find situations that trigger anxiety without actually involving any risk you could practise.

 

[Athos]

A big part of Dr Weekes work is about how the fear of anxiety symptoms feeds a fear-adrenalin-fear cycle that keeps sufferers sensitised and so more likely to experience disproportionately acute physiological anxiety responses. Which is why it's important to differentiate between the initial fears (some of which might be objectively reasonable), and the subsequent fear of anxiety symptoms. And why she stresses that the latter, whilst unpleasant, are essentially harmless. I'd thoroughly recommend friendofdorothy to read her books - there's hundreds of thousands of people (if not more) who credit her with saving their lives.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I can accept the feelings of anxiety - they are unpleasant but logically I know they won't kill me - I don't think I'm afraid of the anxiety. I can own up and admit my fears to my boss, my colleagues and friends. It's a tad embarrassing admitting my fears to strangers - especially when they say 'WHy?' in all naivity like they have forgotten all about covid long ago. I'm an old, out, pink haired dyke I can cope with public ridicule.

I know anxiety is there alerting me to to the fact that the unmasked people coughing and touching things or breathing on me are potientally infectious and could give me covid. I am very afraid of catching covid. Strangely enough I'm not afraid to die only I'm afraid of not being to breathe, of airfed masks, of intubation, ventilators and hospitals in general. The govt, the media and nhs have been fueling my anxiety and it is now rather intense, my anxiety has been 'sensitised' by nearly 2 years pandemic (despite not watching or listening to news since march 2020)

What the fuck can I do with that knowledge other than run away from every person I meet or avoid going anywhere near other people ever, THAT is the bit I'm struggling with.

I don't know how to feel safe around people anymore.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'm not sure that's very helpful tbh.

it has proved not to be very helpful.

Most of the therapy I've had seems to be:
examining my anxiety (I know what Im anxious about)
or to be about exposing myself to my fears (I dont want to to be exposed to covid)
or challenging my negative thinking (how the fuck do I think positively about covid?)

 

[Sue]

it has proved not to be very helpful.

Most of the therapy I've had seems to be:
examining my anxiety (I know what Im anxious about)
or to be about exposing myself to my fears (I dont want to to be exposed to covid)
or challenging my negetive thinking (how the fuck do I think positively about covid?)

Yes, it's hard because that ^ makes perfect sense.

 

[friendofdorothy]

In fact changing the way you think and feel about something like Covid - or anything - is really hard.

that is it in a nutshell. Thats the bit i'm finding very difficult, thats the bit I dont know how to do.

Therapists keep talking about anxiety - but not about changing how I think and feel about covid.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Yes, it's hard because that ^ makes perfect sense.

Avoiding catching covid is very rational. But never leaving the house and avoiding the whole of humanity is not very practical.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I know you're not having a go, but, to clarify: I wasn't simply saying "be rational"; I know that won't stop the anxiety. The point was more around pathologising fear; anxiety is only a problem when it's misplaced and/or out of proportion (reasonable and proportionate fears are what keep us safe). So a first step in the OPs situation would be to scope the problem i.e. to establish what fears are objectively reasonable, in the OP's circumstances (e.g. underlying health, local infection rates, vaccination status, age, etc.), and trying to tackle anything over and above that.

But in the present circumstances what is reasonable and proportionate though?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Another thing to bear in mind is that whilst panic attacks and acute anxiety feel unpleasant they're completely harmless; a physiological response designed to help and protect you, albeit (temporarily) firing at inappropriate times.

its been months and months of fight and flight reponses on full ALERT against an invisible enemy I can't fight. Flight (well running and hiding) seems to be the alternative.

How do people manage to 'just get on with it' ?

 

[Supine]

its been months and months of fight and flight reponses on full ALERT against an invisible enemy I can't fight. Flight (well running and hiding) seems to be the alternative.

How do people manage to 'just get on with it' ?

Covid now isn’t the same as it was in the first half of last year. The community has been building up protection from previous infections and vaccines.

Before covid did you wander around terrified of flu, norovirus, ebola etc etc. i’d hope the answer is not. I think you need to start living with the idea that covid is a thing but not all consuming.

I’m still wearing masks in busy places but don’t think I will after this winter. Life is getting back to normal. Good luck, do it at your own pace.

 

[Wilf]

its been months and months of fight and flight reponses on full ALERT against an invisible enemy I can't fight. Flight (well running and hiding) seems to be the alternative.

How do people manage to 'just get on with it' ?

For me, there's the real world of Covid, with the battle between the condition and the things done to combat it, mainly the vaccine. Then there's me, my ways of thinking, built up over decades and not very useful in a pandemic. There's a relationship between developments in the real world and how I'm feeling, though it's not a slide rule of less cases = less anxious/more cases = more anxious. Bad news, such as when cases are rising or vaccines waning are more likely to confirm my own internal biases. Good news stories, less so as they don't fit my own negative way of thinking.

But there are times when the 'good news' breaks through and makes a difference and persuades me to be a bit less risk averse. I got a bit of that when I was first vaccinated and started doing a bit more and similarly a chat with Occ Health at work I mentioned on p.1. Most of all getting the booster this week and the talk of 95% protection has made me much more, literally, outgoing (particularly as the 95% is as compared to double jabbed people, not just the unvaccinated afaik). Not sure when you get the booster, but now is quite a good time in terms of protection. I recognise that's not so much a game changer if you don't feel like it's a good time and this is all about feelings and being comfortable in what is still a shitty time.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Good news stories are always hard to come by. Bizarrely when I say I'm scared people start telling me more bad news stories, even my gp started telling me how no one is wearing masks on the tube.

Today doctor told me I should be able to get the 3rd jab now (which would due as dec is 6 months) - just got to be able to see people and go idoors with people at the pharmacy to get it. I also need flu vaccine but havent managed to do that yet either.

I need to get out again. Just need to find some courage.

 

[weltweit]

Yep, I have been texted about the flu jab, just got to call to arrange it.

Should be about due my booster also as it has been about 6 months now also.

 

[Athos]

its been months and months of fight and flight reponses on full ALERT against an invisible enemy I can't fight. Flight (well running and hiding) seems to be the alternative.

How do people manage to 'just get on with it' ?

Not fighting - acceptance - is key to Dr Weekes method. A big part of not taking flight (which is exhausting in itself) it that she explains why it feels the way it does, and why that's not something to fear (without minimising how unpleasant it is).

 

[Athos]

But in the present circumstances what is reasonable and proportionate though?

That's why I saying before that I hope you'd find the headspace to think that through when not in the immediate grip of panic.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Today doctor told me I should be able to get the 3rd jab now (which would due as dec is 6 months) - just got to be able to see people and go idoors with people at the pharmacy to get it. I also need flu vaccine but havent managed to do that yet either.

obviously i don't know how it works where you are, but i got my flu jab at my GP practice on a saturday a few weeks back.

All was done as covid safe as possible - in at one door, given a quick once over with hand sanitiser, go and give name to someone at a desk behind a screen, called through to one of the doctors' rooms and got jabbed, then out the fire exit so as not to be walking towards anyone.

all involved were masked, queues being kept at sensible distance and the whole thing was over in less than 5 minutes (only way they could have done it quicker is to shoot the vaccination at people as we walked past, and i think that's illegal)

covid jab was similar sort of arrangement on a bigger scale at reading fc football stadium.

you can book the covid booster online, so probably some choice of where to go and get it (if pharmacy is a bit small) - if nothing good comes up when you look one day, try again the next.

covid safe hugs

 

[friendofdorothy]

Not fighting - acceptance - is key to Dr Weekes method. A big part of not taking flight (which is exhausting in itself) it that she explains why it feels the way it does, and why that's not something to fear (without minimising how unpleasant it is).

I feel like you are missing my point - acceptance - how do accept the risk of covid - an illness I find terrifing?

 

[Athos]

I feel like you are missing my point - acceptance - how do accept the risk of covid - an illness I find terrifing?

Sorry, not making myself clear. Her method is about accepting the symptoms of fear. The idea being that, when you do, your nervous system recovers, and becomes less prone to disproportionate reactions. That might buy you the space to weigh up the covid risk more objectively. But I'm not doing it justice; the books are well worth a read - have helped many people in very similar circumstances to you.

 

[Athos]

I feel like you are missing my point - acceptance - how do accept the risk of covid - an illness I find terrifing?

Sorry, not making myself clear. Her method is about accepting the symptoms of fear. The idea being that, when you do, your nervous system recovers, and becomes less prone to disproportionate reactions. That should buy you the space to weigh up the covid risk more objectively. But I'm not doing it justice; the books are well worth a read - have helped many people in very similar circumstances to you.

 

[friendofdorothy]

obviously i don't know how it works where you are, but i got my flu jab at my GP practice on a saturday a few weeks back.

All was done as covid safe as possible - in at one door, given a quick once over with hand sanitiser, go and give name to someone at a desk behind a screen, called through to one of the doctors' rooms and got jabbed, then out the fire exit so as not to be walking towards anyone.

all involved were masked, queues being kept at sensible distance and the whole thing was over in less than 5 minutes (only way they could have done it quicker is to shoot the vaccination at people as we walked past, and i think that's illegal)

covid jab was similar sort of arrangement on a bigger scale at reading fc football stadium.

you can book the covid booster online, so probably some choice of where to go and get it (if pharmacy is a bit small) - if nothing good comes up when you look one day, try again the next.

covid safe hugs

Thanks Mr Tat. I've checked out the local pharmacy - they do flu jabs with out appoints and have someone sitting under a canopy outside checking things - so presume I could wait outside till ready. They also do covid jabs but I want to do them at separate times not sure if I have to book yet - but will check.

I didn't feel any different after two AZ jabs but then I had heard jabs offered little protection against the delta variant which was common in Lambeth area, so I didn't really feel protected - though I really did try to go out more.

 

[8ball]

Thanks Mr Tat. I've checked out the local pharmacy - they do flu jabs with out appoints and have someone sitting under a canopy outside checking things - so presume I could wait outside till ready. They also do covid jabs but I want to do them at separate times not sure if I have to book yet - but will check.

I didn't feel any different after two AZ jabs but then I had heard jabs offered little protection against the delta variant which was common in Lambeth area, so I didn't really feel protected - though I really did try to go out more.

The AZ vaccine is still effective against Delta, just not quite as much as with prior variants.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Sorry, not making myself clear. Her method is about accepting the symptoms of fear. The idea being that, when you do, your nervous system recovers, and becomes less prone to disproportionate reactions. That should buy you the space to weigh up the covid risk more objectively. But I'm not doing it justice; the books are well worth a read - have helped many people in very similar circumstances to you.

that still makes no sense to me no matter how many times you say it. So please just stop.

This exactly what the talking therapies exposure and habituation was all about and it hasnt worked, yet.

 

[friendofdorothy]

The AZ vaccine is still effective against Delta, just not quite as much as with prior variants.

I hear the 3rd jab is a differnt type and more effective with the delta variant.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

not sure if I have to book yet - but will check.

if it's more than 5 months after your second covid jab, you can now go online and book your booster for when it's 6 months (i booked mine online yesterday for mid december)

they are suggesting that there will be 'walk in' booster sessions by december but not yet.

 

[Athos]

that still makes no sense to me no matter how many times you say it. So please just stop.

This exactly what the talking therapies exposure and habituation was all about and it hasnt worked, yet.

OK, I'll not bang on about it, not least of all because I don't seem to be explaining it well; it's really not the same as those other therapies.

 

[8ball]

I hear the 3rd jab is a differnt type and more effective with the delta variant.

I thought they were just mixing them up, using more Pfizer and Moderna vaccines this time round, so overall there is a good chance of getting a different one to the first two jabs.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'm talking about creating more of a separation of "decisions about engaging in activities" from "feelings about engaging in activities" by looking at and sitting with the feelings. Those overwhelming panic feelings are very powerful, and it's counterintuitive not to do everything possible to avoid and run away from them (including mentally running away from them). But this feeds them and makes them stronger.

If one can float through the feelings and accept them, one can observe that after a while they reduce. Over time by doing this repeatedly they subside significantly.

So in theory it's possible to do exposure therapy without actually putting yourself into the feared situation, because what you're exposing yourself to is your own anxiety and not the situation as such. So if you can find situations that trigger anxiety without actually involving any risk you could practise.

Thanks RubyToogood

I felt I had got more comfortable in going outside and walking on the street, then sitting with people out side, then inside. But then contracting a cold has made me question everything I was doing - I was obviously getting close enough to be breathed on /touched. I thought I was being really careful - but now I'm thinking I wasn't careful enough.

In someways its harder to imagine and to just sit with feelings about seeing people, its still really uncomfortable whenever I think of it. Maybe I'm not doing it right. All the exercises therapist gave me either seem inapplicable or make me feel worse.

People invite me to things and I can think that would be lovely to do that /see that person. But I realise my mind is making promised that my body doesn't want to keep. The problem is I can't predict what people will do, they act in ways beyond my control - for example someone who knows about my fears, but still went to kiss me goodbye. arrgh. NO! this never used to bother me before covid.

Am think of sewing FUCK OFF in applique on a tshirt - might work?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Covid now isn’t the same as it was in the first half of last year. The community has been building up protection from previous infections and vaccines.

Before covid did you wander around terrified of flu, norovirus, ebola etc etc. i’d hope the answer is not. I think you need to start living with the idea that covid is a thing but not all consuming.

I’m still wearing masks in busy places but don’t think I will after this winter. Life is getting back to normal. Good luck, do it at your own pace.

I used to be wary of flu or any respiratory infection (not had any exposure of norovirus, ebola etc) I would sensibly step away form anyone with symptoms and I used to wash my hands after being on public transport. It never terrified me the way covid has, I would like to get back to that way of thinking.

 

[friendofdorothy]

yey! just booked my booster for mid dec.