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Covid related agoraphobia

friendofdorothy Do you feel that your fear is proportionate to the risk (which is a priduct of the likelihood of catching it and the likely severity of the consequences of catching it)? And how does that risk compare with the consequnces of the measures you're taking to mitigate it? Becuase if your circumstances man that your fear is proportionate and mitigation a reasonable sacrifice, then it's not really a problem, is it? If it's disproportionate, then it might be. But it's not clear from your posts whether or not you think the fear is proportionate?
 
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Sugar Kane said:
This makes all the sense in the world to me.

I am still being super cautious. Pretty much cocooning.

Freaked out the other day because a delivery driver argued with me about being asked to leave a parcel on the step and back the fuck away !!!
I literally said "stand back" and he came forward.
So I shouted "I SAID MOVE BACK FROM ME NOW!!!"
He then whinged about not being able to put the fucking parcel on the step and how he would have to take a photo.

I pointed to the sign on the door stating "Leave all deliveries on the step and ring the bell..we are in."
He still went on about possibly getting into trouble blah blah.

At that stage I said "put my property on the step and leave".

Really pissed me off. What got to me aswell was that it became very much MAN TALKS DOWN TO SILLY WOMAN.

😡😡😡
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Epona said:
Don't feel like you need to do anything different (from last year) just yet - I think there is a lot of peer pressure going on in terms of folks going without masks and being blasé about social distancing, but that doesn't mean you should or I should follow that pattern of behaviour.

I am seeing things that I find horrific in terms of crowds in pubs, people not socially distancing in supermarkets, no-one on the fucking bus is wearing a fucking mask any more - and I find it properly scary.

I don't think you're wrong to find it scary either - it seems like reasonable caution.

Was actually discussing this very issue with one of the paramedics who came round Monday night to attend to my OH and deliver them to hospital (severe asthma attack), and it seemed like we were in agreement that being cautious is not a bad thing right now, and a fear of being in a crowd is a reasonable reaction - infection rates and death rates are still high, this thing hasn't gone away even though government and in a lot of cases the general public are acting as though it has.

We agreed that for older folks like us the fear of being in places with a lot of people might actually be a lifelong thing that we have to try to cope with now, going forward. It is not irrational fear though, it is totally rational given the circumstances, and you are by no means the only person who feels like this.
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Sorry I meant to say thank you both. It's good to know I'm not the only one.
 
Athos said:
friendofdorothy Do you feel that your fear is proportionate to the risk (which is a priduct of the likelihood of catching it and the likely severity of the consequences of catching it)? And how does that risk compare with the consequnces of the measures you're taking to mitigate it? Becuase if your circumstances man that your fear is proportionate and mitigation a reasonable sacrifice, then it's not really a problem, is it? If it's disproportionate, then it might be. But it's not clear from your posts whether or not you think the fear is proportionate?
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1 ) yes
2). unfortunately my anxiety and fear levels are not 'driven by data' .
Basically I feel very frightened when people come near me, because I think they could infect me with covid that might lead to a horrific death. Whether that's proportionate or not seems to depend on your point of view. See my OP, I think I've been very clear.
 
Epona said:
Was actually discussing this very issue with one of the paramedics who came round Monday night to attend to my OH and deliver them to hospital (severe asthma attack
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How is your OH now are they ok? And how was the hospital were you allowed to go too?

I suffer from asthma but haven't had a really bad attack in years. It's only bad when I have any kind of respitory infection, which is one of the reasons I fear covid.

Best wishes to your OH.
 
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friendofdorothy said:
How is your OH now are they ok? And how was the hospital were you allowed to go too?

I suffer from asthma but haven't had a really bad attack in years. It's only bad when I have any kind of respitory infection, which is one of the reasons I feat covid.

Best wishes to your OH.
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Apparently, people with asthma can now have the booster, according to some asthmatic folk who've been tweeting about it. Originally they were supposed to wait, have it done in December or later or something, but now they're having it/being offered booster.

Have you already had both shots? Maybe book an appointment for a booster? And iirc, I think Pfizer was supposed to be best against the Delta variant that's been causing a lot of concern, so maybe see if you can 'shop around' between clinics and GP surgery to try to get Pfizer as a booster?

Apparently, the effect wears off, or rather lessens, over time, so if you can get a booster, maybe that might help allay some fears, given the vaccine's supposed to make any potential symptoms less worse, so in the unfortunate event you caught it, hopefully it wouldn't be as serious as it might be otherwise, iyswim?
 
And yes, your fears and anxieties have been justified, they're not irrational. These have not been normal times. These have been very uncertain times. Our own risk assessments, or thought processes and opinions and decisions about what level of interactions we're comfortable with haven't necessarily tallied with those of the people we've been interacting with, even loved ones.

It's been isolating and scary. And yet it seems like we might be coming through the other side. I say seems, because for many it's like the pandemic's over and people are eschewing all precautions (some may not have taken any in the first place).

For what it's worth, I don't think we're out of the woods yet, so your concerns aren't misplaced, they're rational and sensible, given the infection rates, and especially how our infection and hospitalisation rates compare to other countries, and considering how incredibly incompetent our PM and his government are.

Tbh, I think it's sensible to bide your time, don't allow yourself to feel unduly pressured into activities and interactions by others who are less cautious and/or don't have underlying medical conditions. But also be aware of not letting anxiety dominate and rule your life, try to manage it, rather than let it manage you. A certain amount of anxiety is surely healthy, it keeps us alert to danger, makes us think through risky situations and how to mitigate risks and keep ourselves safe. But it's all about finding a healthy balance. It sounds like your employer is being reasonable and understanding about you not wanting to attend the event. Keep those lines of communication open. Maybe some times it's easy to let anxiety take hold, worrying about the prospect of having to attend an event, and getting worked up and anxious about it, when sometimes tackling the issue defuses it. So don't be afraid to talk to bosses or friends or family about your concerns, or letting them know about where your boundaries are in terms of interaction. Maybe if you're meeting, tell people in advance, or as you're walking up to meet someone, put your hand out/up and give them a cheery wave and smile say 'Hi! Nice to see you. Not hugging anyone just yet.' or send folk a text message or email saying that before you meet? I think a lot of anxiety, or potential for anxiety relates to our differences in comfort levels with different levels of risk, and it's maybe best to just get it out in the open instead of fretting?

But ultimately, you have to do what your comfortable with, when you're comfortable with, and do what's best for you. x
 
friendofdorothy said:
1 ) yes
2). unfortunately my anxiety and fear levels are not 'driven by data' .
Basically I feel very frightened when people come near me, because I think they could infect me with covid that might lead to a horrific death. Whether that's proportionate or not seems to depend on your point of view. See my OP, I think I've been very clear.
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I get that different people have differing points of view, but do you think the fear you experience (and the actions you take as a consequence) are proportionate to the risk to you?

On the one hand, seeking help for anxiety suggests that you see it as a disproportionate response, whereas, at other times, you seem to be suggesting that your fear levels are reasonable in the circumstances.

You might find some comfort if you could resolve that at a rational level (accepting that your feelings of fear won't necessarily follow rational thought, at least immediately). If you came to a conclusion that the anxiety and mitigation measures are proportionate to the risk to you, then maybe you wouldn't be so concerned by the fact of being anxious (and de-escalate that 'fear of fear' vicious cycle). Whereas, if you concluded that they weren't proportionate, you could reassure yourself of that before doing the things that make you scared until they no longer scare you.

Of course I realise that fears aren't necessarily directly driven by data, but there is a massive interplay between thoughts and feelings. There's been lots of times I've been scared to do things until I'd done the risk calculus, and decided to do them notwithstanding the fear, and generally been pleased I did. Similarly, there's been times I'd beaten myself up for allowing fear to stop me, until I thought then through and realised the reward wasn't worth the risk, and reconciled myself to not doing them, rather than trying to battle the fear.

Trying to force yourself to do something you reasonably believe - based on a careful assessment of objective evidence - is likely to cause you great harm would negatively affect anyone.

But reaching a settled view and committing to it* removes the agony of choice, the stress of uncertainty, and the strain or ruminating on the same things over and over. (*Arguably even if it's objectively 'wrong'.) You can always decide that you'll review your position on any significant change of circumstances and/or every so many months.
 
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Athos said:
I get that different people have differing points of view, but do you think the fear you experience (and the actions you take as a consequence) are proportionate to the risk to you?

On the one hand, seeking help for anxiety suggests that you see it as a disproportionate response, whereas, at other times, you seem to be suggesting that your fear levels are reasonable in the circumstances.
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yes I'm fucking confused. I sought help for anxiety because it was so extremely distressing to me. Logically in my head I know a visit to the supermarket is unlikely to killl me but my body reaction was full blown fight or flight RUN AWAY response. Having the settled veiw that I'll never leave the house isn't helpful when all the milk has gone off and a visit to a local shop is too frightening to do. It's not how I am used to living or ever expected to be.

Athos I think you are trying to be helpful but I simply cant process what you are saying, I cant do your risk calculus in a dispassionate way because I'm busy having a fucking panic.
 
friendofdorothy said:
yes I'm fucking confused. I sought help for anxiety because it was so extremely distressing to me. Logically in my head I know a visit to the supermarket is unlikely to killl me but my body reaction was full blown fight or flight RUN AWAY response. Having the settled veiw that I'll never leave the house isn't helpful when all the milk has gone off and a visit to a local shop is too frightening to do. It's not how I am used to living or ever expected to be.

Athos I think you are trying to be helpful but I simply cant process what you are saying, I cant do your risk calculus in a dispassionate way because I'm busy having a fucking panic.
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Sorry to hear that. I hope that you're soon able to find enough respite from the panic to do some of that thinking. Good luck.
 
By the way I expect that a gradually increasing range of treatments and preventatives are a big part of what will help me to cope better as time goes on.
 
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Cheers, and to you. I'm actually doing ok by my standards, I could carry on this way for quite some time if I had to. But I do like to look to the future and the ways that I am others can gradually move on.
 
I have my last CBT session on wed. In treating my agorapphobia like a completely irrational fear, it's not helping me to sort my general fear and panic in actually seeing people from the real threat of covid, and I'm having difficult in separating the two.
 
The therapist cancelled my cbt session this week but sent me a link to Coronavirus (COVID-19): guidance and support It begins:

Coronavirus remains a serious health risk. You should stay cautious to help protect yourself and others.​


  • Let fresh air in if you meet indoors. Meeting outdoors is safer
  • Wear a face covering in crowded and enclosed spaces where you come into contact with people you do not normally meet
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which confirmed to me that all my fears and desires to avoid people breathing on me seem to be well founded.
 
friendofdorothy said:
which confirmed to me that all my fears and desires to avoid people breathing on me seem to be well founded.
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Well generally avoiding being in really close proximity to lots of other people is probably a good idea, but it’s a factor of how many other people and how long you are in proximity to them, airflow, mask use etc. etc.

Like you have said, your feelings aren’t “data driven” as such, so that’s not likely to cut any ice..

Exposure and habituation is going to be a factor in whichever kind of therapy will work for you, but you can take it gently. As in just getting to somewhere where you feel a safe-ish distance and people are behaving predictably enough (ie. unlikely to approach you etc.) and just sitting with that anxiety and accepting and observing it, seeing how it fades after a bit, reflecting later (some days later) on how you didn’t catch the plague etc.

From your first post it seems you are comfortable with doing certain things when reasonable precautions are in place. I know a few people who are similarly cautious. A pub with just a few people when well-ventilated isn’t an abnormally cautious limit to have, so I guess the question is how sociable do you want to be?
What level would you be happiest at while being satisfied that you are not creating unnecessary dangers?
 
Are there any situations where you experience this kind of anxiety where you're not immediately at any risk of catching covid? Say when you just think about something like going to your work conference.

Because you could practice anxiety coping skills in those situations to try and separate anxiety about risk from actual risk.
 
Hi RubyToogood thanks for asking

Yes just thinking about seeing people, going places is making me anxious, because I don't know how I will be able to do it. I'm not leaving the house again and have resorted to having everything delivered (which I wouldnt normally do - but cant face shops at all atm) Not sure how to separate the two (yet!)

I don't know what my anxiety coping skills are (beyond asking random people on the internet and talking therapies). I've never been this anxious before. I used to have depression coping skills for generally coping with life but they are mostly impossible since the pandemic and even things like working in the garden isn't good this weather. Anything involving concentrating on the breath all doesnt help now and has the opposite effect. I used to do tai chi and yoga before but havent been able to do it for months. Dont mention mindfulness.

Lambth Talking Therapy keeps treating me like it all like its an unreasonable fear and calls things like checking how many people are inside a shop before entering and constantly being on the watch for people coming near me as 'scanning' and 'coping behaviours' which doesn't help. When she says the eventual aim of exposure and habituation is to be able to do things without 'coping behaviours'. arrgh. I'm so confused.

I'm also talking to a mental health worker from something called Able Futures - she is only supposed to see me once a month but is taking time to see me weekly at the moment. She is good at listening and is advocating self care and rest for now.
 
What about just going out but keeping away from people?
Obviously if you suffer from panic attacks then this wouldn't give you a wide radius to walk but trying this might help with moving forward.
I use to go out only in the middle of the night because the lack of people on the streets made it easier back when I had issues with crowds. And only shop at 24 hoursupermarkets at around 3AM.
 
friendofdorothy said:
Hi RubyToogood thanks for asking

Yes just thinking about seeing people, going places is making me anxious, because I don't know how I will be able to do it. I'm not leaving the house again and have resorted to having everything delivered (which I wouldnt normally do - but cant face shops at all atm) Not sure how to separate the two (yet!)

I don't know what my anxiety coping skills are (beyond asking random people on the internet and talking therapies). I've never been this anxious before. I used to have depression coping skills for generally coping with life but they are mostly impossible since the pandemic and even things like working in the garden isn't good this weather. Anything involving concentrating on the breath all doesnt help now and has the opposite effect. I used to do tai chi and yoga before but havent been able to do it for months. Dont mention mindfulness.

Lambth Talking Therapy keeps treating me like it all like its an unreasonable fear and calls things like checking how many people are inside a shop before entering and constantly being on the watch for people coming near me as 'scanning' and 'coping behaviours' which doesn't help. When she says the eventual aim of exposure and habituation is to be able to do things without 'coping behaviours'. arrgh. I'm so confused.

I'm also talking to a mental health worker from something called Able Futures - she is only supposed to see me once a month but is taking time to see me weekly at the moment. She is good at listening and is advocating self care and rest for now.
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Hi friendofdorothy I really hope things get better for you. I won't give you advice, just talk about my own version of this. I tend to be too reflective/ruminative and that mapped onto Covid, leaving me anxious about doing normal stuff. It also stopped me returning to the campus where I work when the term started and I've been off sick since September. The times when I've felt a bit better have partly been about the 'data', for example I've just had the booster and, if I've read the figures right, it's a situation where I'm very - maybe extremely - unlikely to catch Covid at the moment.

That realisation helps and I've been out a bit more, done a bit more. Same time, I find myself with some of the same anxieties walking past people, touching surfaces in shops etc. What helps is a realisation that that all of that anxiety/behaviour was appropriate to the pre-vaccine phase or at least before I got triple jabbed, so maybe there's a need to shed some behaviours and bits of mental armour. Then there's also a flash where you realise the overly self protective phase is limiting you and didn't need to happen. A moment of clarity maybe.

Hope that doesn't sound preachy, as I say it was about where I've been at. Suppose all I'm saying is maybe the vaccine data at least can help shift your mood or attitude towards risk.
 
wemakeyousoundb said:
What about just going out but keeping away from people?
Obviously if you suffer from panic attacks then this wouldn't give you a wide radius to walk but trying this might help with moving forward.
I use to go out only in the middle of the night because the lack of people on the streets made it easier back when I had issues with crowds. And only shop at 24 hoursupermarkets at around 3AM.
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thank you.
 
Wilf said:
Hi friendofdorothy I really hope things get better for you. I won't give you advice, just talk about my own version of this. I tend to be too reflective/ruminative and that mapped onto Covid, leaving me anxious about doing normal stuff. It also stopped me returning to the campus where I work when the term started and I've been off sick since September. The times when I've felt a bit better have partly been about the 'data', for example I've just had the booster and, if I've read the figures right, it's a situation where I'm very - maybe extremely - unlikely to catch Covid at the moment.

That realisation helps and I've been out a bit more, done a bit more. Same time, I find myself with some of the same anxieties walking past people, touching surfaces in shops etc. What helps is a realisation that that all of that anxiety/behaviour was appropriate to the pre-vaccine phase or at least before I got triple jabbed, so maybe there's a need to shed some behaviours and bits of mental armour. Then there's also a flash where you realise the overly self protective phase is limiting you and didn't need to happen. A moment of clarity maybe.

Hope that doesn't sound preachy, as I say it was about where I've been at. Suppose all I'm saying is maybe the vaccine data at least can help shift your mood or attitude towards risk.
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thank you. I like the idea of shedding mental armour.
 
Another thing to bear in mind is that whilst panic attacks and acute anxiety feel unpleasant they're completely harmless; a physiological response designed to help and protect you, albeit (temporarily) firing at inappropriate times.
 
i think i get some of what you're saying about "rational" fears fod. i don't drive since i had an accident many years ago. i've managed to get a lid on the panic response to being in a car over years of exposure. but i still avoid car travel. and don't intend to drive again. which limits my life in significant ways. how much of this is a rational response and how much is anxiety-driven is up for debate. i hope it's not reaching too much to draw the parallels, love to you with working it out x
 
wayward bob said:
i think i get some of what you're saying about "rational" fears fod. i don't drive since i had an accident many years ago. i've managed to get a lid on the panic response to being in a car over years of exposure. but i still avoid car travel. and don't intend to drive again. which limits my life in significant ways. how much of this is a rational response and how much is anxiety-driven is up for debate. i hope it's not reaching too much to draw the parallels, love to you with working it out x
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Yeah, I don't think there's a hard distinction between 'rational' and 'irrational' fears so, in that sense, saying 'be rational' doesn't help (I'm not having a go Athos, it's not that kind of thread). There are only our own experiences, histories and ways of processing the world. Sometimes it's more about nudging these around and even turning the odd assumption on its head to make a bit of progress.

Again, I'm not suggesting there's some easy way to feel better FoD, just talking about me, me, me. :) In fact changing the way you think and feel about something like Covid - or anything - is really hard.
 
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