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COVID-19 in America

I’m not sure the logic of that Covid bonus thing stacks up at all... I mean I’m inclined to disbelieve it in any case for many of the reasons others have said. But even taking it at face value it doesn’t work, simply because healthcare litigation is a thing, and a thing medical professionals pay a fair bit to avoid. Add to that risks of prosecution for fraud...
 
petee said:
www.cbsnews.com

Colombia arrests Florida men accused of selling fake COVID cure that allegedly killed 7 people

They face a maximum of between 14 and more than 17 years in prison if convicted of all charges.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

Colombian officials say they have arrested two Florida men wanted in the U.S. on charges they illegally sold a bleachlike chemical as a miracle cure for the new coronavirus and other diseases. The Colombian prosecutor's office said Tuesday that Mark and Joseph Grenon were arrested in the beach town of Santa Marta, and were shipping their "Miracle Mineral Solution" — chlorine dioxide — from there to clients in the United States, Colombia and Africa.

It said seven Americans had died from using the substance.
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised at this.

Cid said:
I’m not sure the logic of that Covid bonus thing stacks up at all... I mean I’m inclined to disbelieve it in any case for many of the reasons others have said. But even taking it at face value it doesn’t work, simply because healthcare litigation is a thing, and a thing medical professionals pay a fair bit to avoid. Add to that risks of prosecution for fraud...
Click to expand...

Oh, for sure - it doesn't make much sense; I agree. If I wasn't hearing it from a person I work with, I'd not "believe" the other people saying it either (media sources). But again, I don't always believe everything my boss tells me anyway.

In regards to the fraud bit, outside of the whole pandemic thing, what about the doctors who push pills on people? If a doctor doesn't test you for an "ailment", but decides you need a certain drug to remedy whatever they think you have, could that be fraud?

Or, I'll give you an example of something that happened to me: several years ago, I went to my GP for my yearly physical. I spoke with her about having some shoulder problems (which I've now learned you don't speak with your primary doctor about things outside of why you're there. Something similar happened to my mum and a couple of her friends). My doctor told me that it's most likely a strained muscle (because it's my dominant arm, and things like this happen frequently with people, especially those who do a lot of movement in various forms) and if I take some ibuprofen and do some muscle exercises, the pain I was feeling would go away. A couple weeks later, I received a bill and questionnaire from my health insurance group - how did I hurt my shoulder (I'm forgetting the term they used - not a fracture or sprain, but in the ballpark of a level after spraining). The insurance needed to know what happened - was it via a car accident, work, or something different? I called the insurance to question why I was getting this letter. The only thing I received from my doctor was an explanation that it was possibly a muscle strain, if anything. There were no X-Rays taken, no prodding or figuring it out. I just described the area and how it felt and she gave me her answer of what she thought it was. Didn't even touch me - just looked at me as I pointed and described. If I return the questionnaire, I can't give any honest answers with out it feeling like fraud to me, and potentially being fraud... only because I didn't sustain injuries from an accident of sorts in any way that they were asking me. From their standpoint, they needed to know how to proceed - to go after my employer for workman's compensation, the other insurance for a car accident, or whatever else different had transpired. I fought with the insurance (and my doctor) about this because I couldn't legally return the paperwork with out putting myself in jeopardy as a liar. I reckoned that my doctor submitted it as a minor injury so she could get more money from the insurance company.

So... how would that be handled if I answered the questions? Fraud?

Oh, and the end result was that a little over a year ago, I saw another doctor, who sent me for X-Rays because it had gotten worse. X-Rays showed calcification and some forms of arthritis in my shoulder. With a little more in depth paperwork for different muscle exercises, I ended up with a cortisone shot as well. Knock on wood I've not had any major problems since.

maomao said:
What happens to Americans with no medical insurance (almost 10%) and undocumented immigrants then? Are they just expected to die at home or are there systems set up for Covid specifically?
Click to expand...
+
two sheds said:
Some have faced six-figure or even seven-figure medical bills when they recover :eek: and of course they'll be in least possible position to pay them.
Click to expand...

Americans with no medical insurance and undocumented immigrants get foot the bill no matter a pandemic or a sore throat in the spring. Even some with insurance (because it's a lowered tiered insurance - the crap of the crap) get a bill for thousands of dollars for their stay. But two sheds is right - people can face six or seven figure medical bills when they recover, although, like I said, it can be even something unrelated to the Covid. I don't knowif there are systems in place for billing for Covid. I've seen internet articles saying places are charging a Covid fee to their normal pricing, but that went away once the US Government announced there is a coin shortage and companies are now asking for exact dollar amount if you're paying by cash or use plastic (debit or credit) because the company has no coins to give back as change.
 
abe11825 said:
Americans with no medical insurance and undocumented immigrants get foot the bill no matter a pandemic or a sore throat in the spring. Even some with insurance (because it's a lowered tiered insurance - the crap of the crap) get a bill for thousands of dollars for their stay. But @two sheds is right - people can face six or seven figure medical bills when they recover, although, like I said, it can be even something unrelated to the Covid. I don't knowif there are systems in place for billing for Covid. I've seen internet articles saying places are charging a Covid fee to their normal pricing, but that went away once the US Government announced there is a coin shortage and companies are now asking for exact dollar amount if you're paying by cash or use plastic (debit or credit) because the company has no coins to give back as change.
Click to expand...
So in most cases that's just going to mean not seeking medical attention isn't it? I remember going to a US hospital aged 12 needing stitches. They wanted to see our insurance docs before they'd even look at the wound.
 
abe11825 said:
I'm not surprised at this.



Oh, for sure - it doesn't make much sense; I agree. If I wasn't hearing it from a person I work with, I'd not "believe" the other people saying it either (media sources). But again, I don't always believe everything my boss tells me anyway.

In regards to the fraud bit, outside of the whole pandemic thing, what about the doctors who push pills on people? If a doctor doesn't test you for an "ailment", but decides you need a certain drug to remedy whatever they think you have, could that be fraud?

Or, I'll give you an example of something that happened to me: several years ago, I went to my GP for my yearly physical. I spoke with her about having some shoulder problems (which I've now learned you don't speak with your primary doctor about things outside of why you're there. Something similar happened to my mum and a couple of her friends). My doctor told me that it's most likely a strained muscle (because it's my dominant arm, and things like this happen frequently with people, especially those who do a lot of movement in various forms) and if I take some ibuprofen and do some muscle exercises, the pain I was feeling would go away. A couple weeks later, I received a bill and questionnaire from my health insurance group - how did I hurt my shoulder (I'm forgetting the term they used - not a fracture or sprain, but in the ballpark of a level after spraining). The insurance needed to know what happened - was it via a car accident, work, or something different? I called the insurance to question why I was getting this letter. The only thing I received from my doctor was an explanation that it was possibly a muscle strain, if anything. There were no X-Rays taken, no prodding or figuring it out. I just described the area and how it felt and she gave me her answer of what she thought it was. Didn't even touch me - just looked at me as I pointed and described. If I return the questionnaire, I can't give any honest answers with out it feeling like fraud to me, and potentially being fraud... only because I didn't sustain injuries from an accident of sorts in any way that they were asking me. From their standpoint, they needed to know how to proceed - to go after my employer for workman's compensation, the other insurance for a car accident, or whatever else different had transpired. I fought with the insurance (and my doctor) about this because I couldn't legally return the paperwork with out putting myself in jeopardy as a liar. I reckoned that my doctor submitted it as a minor injury so she could get more money from the insurance company.

So... how would that be handled if I answered the questions? Fraud?

Oh, and the end result was that a little over a year ago, I saw another doctor, who sent me for X-Rays because it had gotten worse. X-Rays showed calcification and some forms of arthritis in my shoulder. With a little more in depth paperwork for different muscle exercises, I ended up with a cortisone shot as well. Knock on wood I've not had any major problems since.


+


Americans with no medical insurance and undocumented immigrants get foot the bill no matter a pandemic or a sore throat in the spring. Even some with insurance (because it's a lowered tiered insurance - the crap of the crap) get a bill for thousands of dollars for their stay. But two sheds is right - people can face six or seven figure medical bills when they recover, although, like I said, it can be even something unrelated to the Covid. I don't knowif there are systems in place for billing for Covid. I've seen internet articles saying places are charging a Covid fee to their normal pricing, but that went away once the US Government announced there is a coin shortage and companies are now asking for exact dollar amount if you're paying by cash or use plastic (debit or credit) because the company has no coins to give back as change.
Click to expand...

Honestly the US system is fucked and I have no idea on specific cases. Fraud is intentional deception for an unlawful gain. There’s a lot to unpack in that sentence that depends on case law and legislation, but that’s the principle. There are going to be complex issues around a consumer being told to do something which they may not understand to be dishonest. But you can bet the insurance companies are lawyered up to the eyeballs.
 
maomao said:
So in most cases that's just going to mean not seeking medical attention isn't it? I remember going to a US hospital aged 12 needing stitches. They wanted to see our insurance docs before they'd even look at the wound.
Click to expand...
There could be a number of reasons someone doesn’t seek medical attention. They are stubborn or they fear it’s bad enough to end up taking a bed in the hospital and walk out having to pay thousands of dollars later.

A lot of places require proof of insurance while registering. Even for 12 stitches or anything minor/ major. The insurance plan I have, it’s $70 to go to the clinic (“convenient care” they call it locally) and get looked at. That’s not the same as going to your GP. Primary doctor visits are $20. Emergency room visits are $300. And those prices are copays - what you pay for up front in order to be seen!

Cid said:
Honestly the US system is fucked and I have no idea on specific cases. Fraud is intentional deception for an unlawful gain. There’s a lot to unpack in that sentence that depends on case law and legislation, but that’s the principle. There are going to be complex issues around a consumer being told to do something which they may not understand to be dishonest. But you can bet the insurance companies are lawyered up to the eyeballs.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. It’s just curious as to what the doctors consider “ok” and report while insurance companies bill for something else. It’s all how the medical staff codes your appointment. There are broad terms the staff uses to submit information to the insurance company, so sometimes things can get misinterpreted.

two sheds said:
Worst possible system for an infectious pandemic, people with symptoms are likely to stfu. :(
Click to expand...

Basically.
 
Like us, the USA has been laying down the groundwork for a very bad pandemic experience for decades.
 
abe11825 said:
There could be a number of reasons someone doesn’t seek medical attention. They are stubborn or they fear it’s bad enough to end up taking a bed in the hospital and walk out having to pay thousands of dollars later.

A lot of places require proof of insurance while registering. Even for 12 stitches or anything minor/ major. The insurance plan I have, it’s $70 to go to the clinic (“convenient care” they call it locally) and get looked at. That’s not the same as going to your GP. Primary doctor visits are $20. Emergency room visits are $300. And those prices are copays - what you pay for up front in order to be seen!
Click to expand...

It's just... so fucking depressing and hard to comprehend from here.


Totally agree. It’s just curious as to what the doctors consider “ok” and report while insurance companies bill for something else. It’s all how the medical staff codes your appointment. There are broad terms the staff uses to submit information to the insurance company, so sometimes things can get misinterpreted.



Basically.
Click to expand...

So... It is going to be complex. But it's probably safer for a doctor to over-prescribe so long as they are doing it in a 'medically ethical' way. And by that I don't mean actually medically ethical, I mean within taught prescription structures. Sometimes, as I understand it, that's going to involve relying on stuff like information produced by drug companies. So yeah, pretty big conflict there. That's relevant to your pill-pushing point.

In terms of your injury... Well that's probably the grey area of fudging and looking for potential sources to cover the claim. For everyone (except maybe you) there's probably an out. The doctor says 'oh I assessed it as a minor injury, I have nothing to do with the claim side'. The insurance company says 'oh it's just our standard procedure for reported minor injuries'. Did it really not have any no-fault options? Sport injury or something? Fraud - the criminal element - requires intentional deception, so there are probably ways out around that too. And worst case - which probably never comes up given their legal departments - might mean a fine. Civil fraud is different, but then who's going to pursue anyone for civil fraud? If there's another party at fault the insurance companies will just have standard procedures for settling disputes.

e2a: I hasten to add that's all total speculation based on inferring stuff from the law I studied a few years ago. And the odd book/youtube rant.
 
Horray!!!!!

www.ctvnews.ca

Canada-U.S. border closure extended again amid tension over restrictions

Canadian and U.S. officials have agreed to keep the border between the two countries closed to non-essential travel for another month. This comes as both countries are still working to stop the spread of COVID-19, and as tensions continue to flare between Canadians and prospective American visitors.
www.ctvnews.ca

www.ctvnews.ca

Hundreds of Americans are still trying to enter Canada for shopping, recreation: CBSA

As Canada and the U.S. move to extend the border closure by another month, more than 12,000 Americans have been turned away at our shared border — and almost half of them were coming to Canada to sightsee, shop or have some fun, despite the ongoing pandemic.
www.ctvnews.ca
 
They really do got to get their act together.

www.cnn.com

CDC blindsided by Trump's statement it could deploy teams to schools this fall

Leaders at the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention were blindsided this week when President Donald Trump announced that the agency could deploy teams to assist schools with safely reopening in the fall, a senior CDC official told CNN.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

"My administration also stands ready to deploy CDC teams to support schools that are opening and schools that need help in safety and in order to safely reopen," Trump said on Tuesday during a briefing.

The announcement left CDC officials scrambling this week to train-up staff to be able to deploy if they are called upon, the senior official said.

Trumps comments are the latest example of a breakdown in communication between the public health agency and the White House.

Early on in the coronavirus pandemic, the CDC Task Force regularly learned about assignments during presidential briefings, finding out in real time along with the public, a senior official said.

The CDC official added that the agency is expected to come up with a vaccine plan for schools in at least four states by October, even though there is no realistic expectation that a vaccine would be ready by then.
Click to expand...

(my bold)
 
I heard something like that on the radio yesterday - in reference to the CDC going to schools. I don't recall everything, but I think it had something to do with all schools getting proper help in reference to sanitation and testing. That all schools across America were going to have easy access to tests and be able to test students, teachers, staff, etc and there be no problems.

When I heard that, I was a little like "wow... really?" only because there's been so many issues with testing as it is - not enough tests or delays in getting results. How is there enough for millions of schools now?
 
abe11825 said:
I heard something like that on the radio yesterday - in reference to the CDC going to schools. I don't recall everything, but I think it had something to do with all schools getting proper help in reference to sanitation and testing. That all schools across America were going to have easy access to tests and be able to test students, teachers, staff, etc and there be no problems.

When I heard that, I was a little like "wow... really?" only because there's been so many issues with testing as it is - not enough tests or delays in getting results. How is there enough for millions of schools now?
Click to expand...

Well there was a lot of promises and statements made that they probably cant backup regarding schools.

But when looking for something a bit more tangible, the USA are at least quick to approve new forms of testing in this pandemic (which isnt always a good thing but hopefully the right decisions are being made on this):

eg the most recent to gain widestread attention was the approval at the weekend of the SalivaDirect test.

www.statnews.com

FDA clears saliva test for Covid-19, opening door to wider testing

The new test is a much less invasive process than the nasal swabs currently used to test for the virus that causes Covid-19, but one that has so far yielded highly sensitive and similar results.
www.statnews.com www.statnews.com
 
elbows - I could stand corrected, but isn’t there something similar to that SalivaDirect method... for marijuana testing? Or any other form of (“illegal”) drug use? I feel like that method has been in use for a while and for other things.

I hope it works and if it does, perhaps that could be the test schools use.

phillm -“oh shit”... re: the Sharon Stone video. That’s horrible!! :( I know it’s bad in some places but there are other towns where they are so sprawled out... so much land between them and their neighbor... that the case numbers are fewer for that area of the particular state. This is in general -something that the news was saying during the major height of all of the US getting something. Some places don’t have enough of a population to get infected. While others see a boom. So it would make sense if Stone’s family can’t see the tests or the city doesn’t have the resources... maybe it’s an area where it is too small a population? I don’t know. I don’t know the back story of her previous cry for help.
 
abe11825 said:
elbows - I could stand corrected, but isn’t there something similar to that SalivaDirect method... for marijuana testing? Or any other form of (“illegal”) drug use? I feel like that method has been in use for a while and for other things.

I hope it works and if it does, perhaps that could be the test schools use.

phillm -“oh shit”... re: the Sharon Stone video. That’s horrible!! :( I know it’s bad in some places but there are other towns where they are so sprawled out... so much land between them and their neighbor... that the case numbers are fewer for that area of the particular state. This is in general -something that the news was saying during the major height of all of the US getting something. Some places don’t have enough of a population to get infected. While others see a boom. So it would make sense if Stone’s family can’t see the tests or the city doesn’t have the resources... maybe it’s an area where it is too small a population? I don’t know. I don’t know the back story of her previous cry for help.
Click to expand...

It really brings home to the profound scale and depth of the tragedy unfolding in the US with her having already lost her grandmother and godmother to COVID-19. Now, her sister and brother-in-law are fighting for their lives and she is a woman who no doubt has wealth and influence. Trump's incompetence has cost more US lives than any US President in history and we are far from done.

(just checked her net wealth $60 million).
 
Better than the uk isn't saying much even with 5000 people risen from the grave by the powers of Hancocks necromancy
 
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