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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

I'll admit, I'm confused.

The median number of people infected per case is high because of the potential for one indidividual to infect hundreds or thousands. The mean (what gets called the r rate) is much lower because most infected people will pass the virus on to very few others, or to nobody.

With this kind of 'long tail' distribution the median by itself doesn't tell us much.
 
If lockdowns were effective why didn't we see spikes after VE Day/when people flocked to beaches/anti-racist protests/when the pubs and restaurants re-opened?

Because the spike takes time, multiple generations of transmission are required to really ramp up the numbers before we end up at the catastrophic level of infection seen in the first wave. This is especially true when the lockdown measures up to that point reduced number of infections at any one moment to low levels. Meaning any resurgence that came from relaxations was starting from a fairly low base and would take considerably time to develop.

Just the same as how the virus got going in the first place really, it was starting from a low number and took weeks to develop. And after behaviours started to massively change and then a week later we locked down, we still had to deal with all the infection out there at that point and the fact transmission would not instantly vanish. But it took quite some time to reach that point, and so it will be true again this time, a repeat that should be at a different pace because R now shouldnt be as bad as R was before the first behavioural changes kicked in.

Sweden has many differences to the UK. Its a bit of a red herring, as the virus resurgence in the UK we are now experiencing demonstrates.

Sticking to what actually happened in the UK, the first wave curve is a reasonable fit for lockdown having a big impact. After all, the following is how I would describe events:

Cases were repeatedly introduced to the UK over a period of several months.
Community transmission got going and at some fairly late stage it became clear how rapidly the number of cases including serious cases were increasing.
Very little of the data shows the full picture, but its still consistent with the timetable of measures.
Behaviours started changing.
About a week later we had a more comprehensive lockdown.
Sure enough, number of deaths, hospitalisations etc peaked a few weeks later.
All measures for number of infections, serious cases and daily deaths then started to fall.
The rate of decrease slowed as various relaxations kicked in.
Levels trundled along the bottom for a bit, as fresh increases in a few areas were mostly offset by continuing decreases elsewhere.
The tipping point came and the numbers started to go back up again.

Its exactly the classic pattern we would expect from doing too little, then doing a lot, then gradually relaxing until we get past the tipping point, and then having to respond again in a timely manner to keep the numbers down.

People that have convinced themselves that lockdown has done nothing rarely present a hypothesis for why they think all the massive, life-altering change in behaviours did nothing. It is entirely insufficient to just cling to the idea that the virus would have peaked and then diminished at that time even without lockdown. Too bloody convenient. I have explored the theory and, like most theories, cannot discount it 100%, I cannot prove 100% that lockdown was responsible for everything, but lockdown being responsible is still by far the most likely possibility. And we've seen the pattern in so many countries, and even Sweden did things that changed behaviours and the viruses ability to spread.

Some people who bought into the 'it would have gone away then anyway' theory were sensible enough to change their tune once they saw the clear signs from Madrid, a region that was badly affected in the first wave, suffering from the virus once more, with notable leaps in hospital admissions. In summer, nowhere close to fitting the timing of the standard seasonal trends you refer to. And that reality snaps off some of the branches they were clinging to, the alternative explanations for why the virus diminished in numbers the first time.
 
What is it we are disagreeing about do you think it’s not true that the numbers are doubling every week?
I’d like to see a breakdown of the cases bimble, especially how many of those are symptomatic, how many go on to be hospitalIsed, other health issues etc etc

I’m not really interested in being here. I’ve just given my opinion. I believe the lockdown will go on to kill far more people than coronavirus ever will
 
As in elbows post if you've got 1 person infected then (say) they pass it on to one person and you get 1 new infection per day. If you've got 10 people infected you get 10 new infections per day. If you've got 1 million people infected you get 1 million new infections per day

:(
Chinese emporer, chess board, start with 1 grain of rice and double per square.
 
Where now is track and trace working at optimum, still SK? I know, it’s different. Any examples in Europe to follow?
 
By my calculations the current daily death rate is less than the average flu season rate averaged over a 12 month period. Also death rates per case seem lowering as well.

If a vaccination is not coming soon, and there are no guarantees of that, isn't it time we just got back to normal while shielding the most vulnerable?

We can't stay in lock down or lock down lite forever.

So the daily death rate is less than 6 months casualties worth of flu season?

Fucking get in there, let's all go for shisa and a rave.
 
By my calculations the current daily death rate is less than the average flu season rate averaged over a 12 month period. Also death rates per case seem lowering as well.

If a vaccination is not coming soon, and there are no guarantees of that, isn't it time we just got back to normal while shielding the most vulnerable?

We can't stay in lock down or lock down lite forever.

were are you getting this idea?

Everyone alive has built up immunity to the flu by the benefit of being alive

no one has immunity to Covid-19 as its a new friggin virus
 
I don't believe that lockdown made much difference. The virus was there and in the population. Imperial College modelling for Sweden said with no lockdown they could have 100,000 deaths. With a very hard lockdown I think it was 25,000. What actually happened was no lockdown and there were 7,000 deaths. We are going through typical curve for a pandemic. What we are seeing now is a typical uptick as we come into winter months again. It is what happens with previous flu outbreaks like the hard one in year 2000 and it's what we are seeing now.

If lockdowns were effective why didn't we see spikes after VE Day/when people flocked to beaches/anti-racist protests/when the pubs and restaurants re-opened?

The modeling has been completely wrong so far. And we can demonstrate it to be wrong by looking at Sweden. I don't believe it at all any more.

I was scared shitless at the start of this and I welcomed the lockdown. I followed/will follow new guidelines to the letter because I believe in society and I might be wrong. But if you look at reality and the actual data, it is my opinion there has been and is a massive overreaction to this virus.

I could write a longer reply refuting what 'you believe' with facts, but I can't be arsed. Just fuck off with your made-up nonsense.
 
.. I believe the lockdown will go on to kill far more people than coronavirus ever will
I think this is a valid if unpopular point. We will never know nobody will be able to add up deaths resulting from lockdowns worldwide. I have a friend works in emergency relief programs in India and it is going totally unreported, deaths from starvation amongst the families of people who lost their livelihoods overnight and had nothing no help no savings etc. That’s in the immediate term, the rolling effects of stopped production and exports in many places we won’t even see until late next year . Not really relevant to UK thread tho.
 
I’d like to see a breakdown of the cases bimble, especially how many of those are symptomatic, how many go on to be hospitalIsed, other health issues etc etc

I’m not really interested in being here. I’ve just given my opinion. I believe the lockdown will go on to kill far more people than coronavirus ever will

You do understand Covid has already killed a minimum of 41,000 people, and probably nearer 65,000, don't you?
 
By my calculations the current daily death rate is less than the average flu season rate averaged over a 12 month period. Also death rates per case seem lowering as well.

If a vaccination is not coming soon, and there are no guarantees of that, isn't it time we just got back to normal while shielding the most vulnerable?

We can't stay in lock down or lock down lite forever.
On July 1st, the day the pubs reopened there were 90 deaths in England. Today there are 9 and people want to close them again. Science and reason has no place in this debate it seems.
At a glance it is difficult to reconcile case numbers and deaths, but it's not exactly impossible. Without me trying to be too obnoxious about it, perhaps you could reflect on it a bit harder before being so self-assured about something that's killed, killing, and going to kill a load of people.

The key risk is exponential growth in cases which means going from, say, 1 in 500 people having it to 1 in very few. At this point it becomes exponentially more likely to reach, infect and kill the vulnerable. As well as this, we appear to have seen earlier in the year that continued exposure to Covid is much more likely to result in death, rather than a linear probability from infection onwards. So a critical mass of people in hospital is likely to kill proportionally many more people, including medical staff.

Additionally you will be aware that there are significant time lags between infection, symptoms and death.

This is why it's very important to take measures early whilst only manifesting as case numbers.
 
I don't believe that lockdown made much difference. The virus was there and in the population. Imperial College modelling for Sweden said with no lockdown they could have 100,000 deaths. With a very hard lockdown I think it was 25,000. What actually happened was no lockdown and there were 7,000 deaths. We are going through typical curve for a pandemic. What we are seeing now is a typical uptick as we come into winter months again. It is what happens with previous flu outbreaks like the hard one in year 2000 and it's what we are seeing now.

If lockdowns were effective why didn't we see spikes after VE Day/when people flocked to beaches/anti-racist protests/when the pubs and restaurants re-opened?

The modeling has been completely wrong so far. And we can demonstrate it to be wrong by looking at Sweden. I don't believe it at all any more.

I was scared shitless at the start of this and I welcomed the lockdown. I followed/will follow new guidelines to the letter because I believe in society and I might be wrong. But if you look at reality and the actual data, it is my opinion there has been and is a massive overreaction to this virus.

Sweden has more single occupancy houses and less population. As a proportion of the population the death rate is only a fraction less than ours


Uk has 620 deaths per million. Sweden has 580

20200921_190833.jpg
 
What we are seeing now is a typical uptick as we come into winter months again. It is what happens with previous flu outbreaks like the hard one in year 2000 and it's what we are seeing now.

Our seasonsal flu upticks dont normally feature 200 poeple a week admitted to hospital with it by mid September.

Some comparisons to the worst influenza epidemics of decades past can be made.

Looking at number of daily deaths from all causes per day for every day from 1970 onwards, there are a few occasions where nasty influenza epidemics create spikes that look a bit like this pademic spike, but not as tall. The one exception is at the very start of this dataset, since at the beggining of January 1970 we were dealing with a nasty wave of pandemic H3N2 influenza. I wish I had 1969 daily death data to complete the picture of that spike, but I dont.

So with a lockdown this virus still managed to look worse for death on some days than any other day in my life (I was born in 1975).

What we dont have for obvious reasons is a graph showing what the 2020 April death spike would have looked like without lockdown. I cant tell you when it would have peaked or at what level, and you dont know that either. So the presumption that lockdown didnt do much is hardly safe.

In this graph each decade from the 1970s onwards has its own row, and either side of that row I have placed the 2020 pandemic death graph so that it is slightly easier to compare the magnitude with all the moments throughout those decades.

Screenshot 2020-09-21 at 19.02.56.png
 
On Sweden - worth noting that it still had a lot more deaths than all of its Scandinavian neighbours, and it's per capita been one of the worst affected countries in the world despite being quite far from the initial epicentre in Europe and having plenty of time to react.

They basically relied on people voluntarily going into lockdown for the most part as the virus worsened and travel stopped to an extent, but then such actions damaged the economy pretty heavily anyway for the most part. It's not as if their lax approach is allowing them to function completely unharmed but with just a few more deaths.
 
I totally agree bimble but I don't think India is a good example of why its best not to do very much. India has catastrophically mishandled the pandemic from start to finish imo, the lockdown was less about public health than a display of power (he had for some weeks been facing protests by political opponents before that) migrant workers were forced to walk home to their villages with a few hours notice. They've handled the reopening equally catastrophically imo, just acting like everything 8 fine and 'the recovery rate is the best in the world' and people who contracted covid have been stigmatised leading to people hiding their symptoms etc. There's also no help for people who have lost their jobs etc, people are literally starving . It's a fuck up all round :(
 
This graph from the ft suggests that maybe the reason Sweden has less of a spike is or second wave is because it's already swept through a good chunk of the country.


20200921_191335.jpg


And again there's the completely different land use patterns and population size. I can post those maps but see no point. 10 million Vs 70 million and the UK in much denser clusters.
 
People that have convinced themselves that lockdown has done nothing rarely present a hypothesis for why they think all the massive, life-altering change in behaviours did nothing. It is entirely insufficient to just cling to the idea that the virus would have peaked and then diminished at that time even without lockdown. Too bloody convenient. I have explored the theory and, like most theories, cannot discount it 100%, I cannot prove 100% that lockdown was responsible for everything, but lockdown being responsible is still by far the most likely possibility. And we've seen the pattern in so many countries, and even Sweden did things that changed behaviours and the viruses ability to spread.

Some people who bought into the 'it would have gone away then anyway' theory were sensible enough to change their tune once they saw the clear signs from Madrid, a region that was badly affected in the first wave, suffering from the virus once more, with notable leaps in hospital admissions. In summer, nowhere close to fitting the timing of the standard seasonal trends you refer to. And that reality snaps off some of the branches they were clinging to, the alternative explanations for why the virus diminished in numbers the first time.

Similarly while it's not impossible that the virus has somehow become less deadly in the last six months, there seems to be little in the data that would suggest that it had, or that cannot be better explained by the same virus being distributed through the population in a different way. And while it's entirely possible for a different strain to arise via mutation, this wouldn't replace the original strain but rather spread alongside it from a single point of origin. So even if a less deadly version appeared in, say, June, original recipe covid would still have a massive head start and so would likely still represent the majority of cases worldwide.

I don't think I've seen anything in the 'it could be less virulent now' school of thought that has anything more to it than wishful thinking. Yes it's technically possible, but in the absence of a lot of data supporting it we have to proceed on the assumption that we're dealing with the same strain as before and that the risks of allowing it to spread unchecked are the same.
 
They basically relied on people voluntarily going into lockdown for the most part as the virus worsened and travel stopped to an extent, but then such actions damaged the economy pretty heavily anyway for the most part.

That's an important point. We're often sold this idea of a trade-off between covid and 'the economy,' but it's nowhere near that straightforward. The pubs, restaurants etc were always going to take a big hit, lockdown or no, simply because people wouldn't take the risk of going to them. It probably does no more damage to lock down and support them through it than just to let the virus run its course. Moreover, one lesson people have taken from the 1918 pandemic, and which in some places seems to have been borne out by experience of this one, is that the best way to minimise the damage is to lock down early and hard, because that way you can return to something like normal more quickly.
 
Similarly while it's not impossible that the virus has somehow become less deadly in the last six months, there seems to be little in the data that would suggest that it had, or that cannot be better explained by the same virus being distributed through the population in a different way. And while it's entirely possible for a different strain to arise via mutation, this wouldn't replace the original strain but rather spread alongside it from a single point of origin. So even if a less deadly version appeared in, say, June, original recipe covid would still have a massive head start and so would likely still represent the majority of cases worldwide.

I don't think I've seen anything in the 'it could be less virulent now' school of thought that has anything more to it than wishful thinking. Yes it's technically possible, but in the absence of a lot of data supporting it we have to proceed on the assumption that we're dealing with the same strain as before and that the risks of allowing it to spread unchecked are the same.

Yes I've discounted that stuff so far. Whenever people asked why deaths and hospitalisations had fallen, I said it could all be explained by the total number of cases at that point being low.

I didnt make notes of todays Vallance & Whitty presentation but I'm pretty sure they poured cold water on the 'virus is milder' stuff at one point.

We are now into the stage where if there were much truth to the milder hopes, this would be demonstrated via hospital data, if those numbers hadnt increased by now given the rise in detected infections we've seen for weeks. And those numbers did rise, so I have no cause to explore the milder theories at all at the moment. There may always come a time where data starts to point in that direction, and then I will change my tune, but I've not seen any signs of that yet.
 
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