Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[Roadkill]

Totally agree, but her argument (and I've seen this elsewhere tbh) is that the lockdown itself has been killing people, leading to more suicides etc and these deaths are being ascribed to covid, or people are 'dying of the underlying conditions' and covid is being blamed

Tbf lockdown hasn't been cost-free in terms of health, especially in terms of people not being able to or not wanting to access healthcare for sometimes serious conditions, and in terms of its impact on mental health, people's lifestyles, and so on. But the idea it could account for something like 65,000 excess deaths is just plain ludicrous.

 

[frogwoman]

Tbf lockdown hasn't been cost-free in terms of health, especially in terms of people not being able to or not wanting to access healthcare for sometimes serious conditions, and in terms of its impact on mental health, people's lifestyles, and so on. But the idea it could account for something like 65,000 excess deaths is just plain ludicrous.

Yeah I know, although countries without a full lockdown like Sweden have also seen the same issues with cancelled medical treatments and people being too scared to turn up to hospital. (They've also seen large numbers of excess deaths).

I don't know how you respond to stuff like that tbh. Just re read the original post and it's even worse than I thought, apparently doctors and medical professionals around the world are being paid to falsify death certificates

 

[LDC]

I'd just de-friend them tbh, and possibly send a message telling them why.

 

[frogwoman]

I'd just de-friend them tbh, and possibly send a message telling them why.

I'm not friends with them, this is a comment on a fb friends status. I have a few acquaintances who have come out with similar shit tho.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Tbf lockdown hasn't been cost-free in terms of health, especially in terms of people not being able to or not wanting to access healthcare for sometimes serious conditions, and in terms of its impact on mental health, people's lifestyles, and so on. But the idea it could account for something like 65,000 excess deaths is just plain ludicrous.

The excess deaths is still some way ahead of the official covid death toll IIRC. That discrepancy is where you'd find the non-covid but still pandemic-related deaths.

My early prediction that lockdown would kill more than covid is now looking a bit silly, but at that point I was still covid expecting deaths to peak within a fortnight of lockdown taking effect. I was also expecting a stricter lockdown with some token gestures towards enforcement.

e2a: As of a couple of weeks ago, the gap between excess deaths and covid deaths was about 12,000.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Totally agree, but her argument (and I've seen this elsewhere tbh) is that the lockdown itself has been killing people, leading to more suicides etc and these deaths are being ascribed to covid, or people are 'dying of the underlying conditions' and covid is being blamed

There's almost 300,000 doctors in the UK, it would be one hell of a conspiracy, getting tens of thousands of them, across the four nations, to fiddle death certificates, these people are just bonkers.

England & Wales only -

Between Weeks 1 and 12, 138,916 deaths were registered in England and Wales , which was 4,822 fewer than the five-year average for these weeks. However, between Weeks 13 and 32, 250,125 deaths were registered, which was 57,592 more than the five-year average. Week 32 showed a continuation of the decreasing trend in excess deaths with 157 fewer deaths than the five-year average (Figure 2). Detailed analysis on non-COVID-19-related deaths is available in Analysis of death registrations not involving coronavirus (COVID-19).

Looking at the year-to-date (using the most up-to-date data we have available), the number of deaths up to 7 August was 389,008, which is 52,737 more than the five-year average. Of the deaths registered by 7 August, 51,879 mentioned COVID-19 on the death certificate, 13.3% of all deaths in England and Wales.

Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional - Office for National Statistics

Provisional counts of the number of deaths registered in England and Wales, including deaths involving the coronavirus pandemic, by age, sex and region.

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[frogwoman]

It's not just the uk, it's 'doctors around the world'

 

[cupid_stunt]

It's not just the uk, it's 'doctors around the world'

So, millions of doctors are in on this great conspiracy?

 

[MickiQ]

As far as the UK is concerned, this is absolute bollocks, just look at the ONS data for registered deaths, and the number of excess deaths this year.

If these approx. 50,000 extra deaths, compared to the 5-year average, are not down to Covid, WTF has been killing all these people?

The lizard people have been conducting experiments on us and look how many people are involved in concealing the Earth is flat, Is it really so hard to imagine that the doctors are lying about the lurgy?

 

[cupid_stunt]

The lizard people have been conducting experiments on us

Oh yeah, how could I forget about the lizard people.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

So, millions of doctors are in on this great conspiracy?

Who told you there are millions of doctors? I've only met about twenty.

 

[Supine]

Who told you there are millions of doctors? I've only met about twenty.

And they were deep state actors

 

[Pickman's model]

Tbf lockdown hasn't been cost-free in terms of health, especially in terms of people not being able to or not wanting to access healthcare for sometimes serious conditions, and in terms of its impact on mental health, people's lifestyles, and so on. But the idea it could account for something like 65,000 excess deaths is just plain ludicrous.

All I wanted it to do was account for 650 excess deaths. Yet of all professions parliamentarians seem to have emerged with a peculiarly, markworthy low level of deaths.

 

[SpookyFrank]

So, millions of doctors are in on this great conspiracy?

All we know for sure is that it's more than one doctor in more than one country.

 

[zora]

Btw, are people still only supposed to get a test and, for that matter, self-isolate if they have got one of the official three symptoms (cough, fever, loss of sense of smell?), no other cold symptoms?

One of my colleagues sounded super-nasally coldly yesterday and I heard him cough (once!) and clear his throat a bit in that coldy way.
Already I am freaked out and second-guessing myself if I should see my boyfriend this weekend or not.

Although this is not about pointing a finger at this particular colleague who certainly didn't seem to be doing anything reckless by current regulations. It made me think more generally about the massive culture of presenteeism, and how come autumn and winter people might self-diagnose themselves with all manner of things as "surely not covid" and splutter moderately all over the place, esp in the jobs with no wfh option, and it's just going to be really uncomfortable...

 

[Doodler]

ITV News gets to the heart of the coronavirus pandemic and reports on the trauma facing those who don't look their best during Zoom video meetings:

Video calls in lockdown causing body image concerns

As a personal trainer, Mike Williams from Bishops Stortford believes it's important to look good, and feel good.

But Mike's worried about his receding hairline being visible.

 

[LDC]

I'm not friends with them, this is a comment on a fb friends status. I have a few acquaintances who have come out with similar shit tho.

I'd totally ignore it then, maybe a PM to your friend asking who the crackpot is or something? (Sorry, edited frogwoman - know you know what to do, I'm more thinking aloud. It's depressing how much this stuff has taken hold with people.)

There's not many lessons I've learnt in life but the futility of arguing with people like that is one - even more so on social media, U75 excluded obviously!

 

[zahir]

Btw, are people still only supposed to get a test and, for that matter, self-isolate if they have got one of the official three symptoms (cough, fever, loss of sense of smell?), no other cold symptoms?

Depends where you are. Different rules for places like Oldham and Blackburn.

 

[frogwoman]

I'd totally ignore it then, maybe a PM to your friend asking who the crackpot is or something?

There's not many lessons I've learnt in life but the futility of arguing with people like that is one - even more so on social media, U75 excluded obviously!

I know, the thing is I am seeing that sort of thing a bit more frequently.

 

[Spandex]

Btw, are people still only supposed to get a test and, for that matter, self-isolate if they have got one of the official three symptoms (cough, fever, loss of sense of smell?), no other cold symptoms?

Officially, yes.

I had this problem a couple of weeks ago. I had a slight cough and felt a bit shit. I didn't have a temperature or loss of smell, but in my head struggled with the question 'what is a continuous cough?'. I was only coughing occasionally - it wasn't non-stop at any point - but it did last for days. The official definition of symptoms are quite vague when you're faced with them, especially as symptoms of C-19 can range from nothing to death. Luckily, my partner is working from home and I'm on leave to look after the kids, so it wasn't too hard to stay home for a week - the kids just had too much screen time while I slumped there for a few days. I did go for a test, which came back negative, but to get it I had to confirm that yes, I did have a continuous cough even though I wasn't sure I actually did. Even when you get the result, apparently there's around a 24% chance for a false negative so we sat out the week at home and we're all fine.

If I had a job that insisted I come in or face consequences, I may well have convinced myself that there was no way it could be Covid. The thing that freaked me out was that despite being careful when out - I had taken the kids out loads - I'd still managed to catch something. Even though it probably wasn't C-19, it just as easily could've been.

 

[LDC]

Tbf lockdown hasn't been cost-free in terms of health, especially in terms of people not being able to or not wanting to access healthcare for sometimes serious conditions, and in terms of its impact on mental health, people's lifestyles, and so on. But the idea it could account for something like 65,000 excess deaths is just plain ludicrous.

Yeah, like lots of this stuff there's often a fragment of truth somewhere in there. Although often buried quite deeply under a massive pile of shit.

 

[zora]

Yes, it is tricky. Though it does sound to me that what you had certainly qualified and you did the right thing.
The NHS website defines a new continous cough as
"a new, continuous cough – this means coughing a lot for more than an hour, or 3 or more coughing episodes in 24 hours (if you usually have a cough, it may be worse than usual)".

But yeah, I do worry that people with similar or slightly lesser symptoms will just be going into work again. In my job, it's not even like we wouldn't get paid, but already that pervasive pressure of not wanting to let our short-staffed side down (short-staffed and overworked because loads of people are still on furlough ) or not wanting to make a fuss over nothing is rearing its head again.

 

[Spandex]

The NHS website defines a new continous cough as
"a new, continuous cough – this means coughing a lot for more than an hour, or 3 or more coughing episodes in 24 hours (if you usually have a cough, it may be worse than usual)".

Yeah, I stared at that bit for ages. What is 'a lot'? What counts as 'an episode'? It leaves plenty of room for people to pick their own definition.

 

[Roadkill]

e2a: As of a couple of weeks ago, the gap between excess deaths and covid deaths was about 12,000.

I thought it was a bit higher than that, tbh. Either way, I'd imagine a very high proportion of them are Covid deaths that weren't recorded as such in the early days, when testing was less common than now, and the bulk of the remainder people with other serious conditions who've either not been able to or not felt able to access care. I'd be very surprised if more than a tiny fraction could be directly attributed to lockdown.

 

[existentialist]

Yes, it is tricky. Though it does sound to me that what you had certainly qualified and you did the right thing.
The NHS website defines a new continous cough as
"a new, continuous cough – this means coughing a lot for more than an hour, or 3 or more coughing episodes in 24 hours (if you usually have a cough, it may be worse than usual)".

But yeah, I do worry that people with similar or slightly lesser symptoms will just be going into work again. In my job, it's not even like we wouldn't get paid, but already that pervasive pressure of not wanting to let our short-staffed side down (short-staffed and overworked because loads of people are still on furlough ) or not wanting to make a fuss over nothing is rearing its head again.

This annoys me a bit - I thought the idea of putting people on furlough was so that they could get paid, even while there was no work for them to do. What you're describing is a work situation where it sounds as if there is work for them to do, but they're furloughed, and your employers are expecting the rest of the team to effectively cover for them.

Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This annoys me a bit - I thought the idea of putting people on furlough was so that they could get paid, even while there was no work for them to do. What you're describing is a work situation where it sounds as if there is work for them to do, but they're furloughed, and your employers are expecting the rest of the team to effectively cover for them.

Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick...

I suspect that's been happening loads. It is effectively what happened at my work - couple of people furloughed, rest of us snowed under.

 

[existentialist]

I suspect that's been happening loads. It is effectively what happened at my work - couple of people furloughed, rest of us snowed under.

If we had a government and state machinery that was competent, a lot of this would be flagged up and dealt with. Apart from being an abuse of the non-furloughed employees, it's also an abuse of the furlough system. Well, who can blame them - look at the example our Glorious Leaders are setting them!

 

[elbows]

Just seen a weird post on fb by someone who claims she knows someone who died of cancer but whose family have been 'fighting for months to have Covid-19 taken off the death certificate'. This sounds like absolute bollocks to me but how do you reply to those sort of arguments? LynnDoyleCooper elbows

My modus operandi is already clear. I bore them to death with data and explanations, and their demise is then counted as a Covid-19 death. Or I ignore them completely because I dont expect them to see the light.

 

[zora]

This annoys me a bit - I thought the idea of putting people on furlough was so that they could get paid, even while there was no work for them to do. What you're describing is a work situation where it sounds as if there is work for them to do, but they're furloughed, and your employers are expecting the rest of the team to effectively cover for them.

Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick...

No, you got it in one. But of course, employers and employees ideas of what constitutes over- or understaffed often diverge wildly. Basically, there is a formula of x amount of turnover per employee, and that same formula is being used now. So now, because sales are so low, we have got a lot fewer people than before. More fool me for briefly thinking that we might not operate on quite such a shoestring of staff as pre-pandemic, so that people could go about their work in a more measured and covid-secure way and not have to dash about the place like the proverbial blue-arsed fly, or taking into account that the whole situation is taking a bit of a toll on people's stress levels. But hey, the company has partnered with a new mental health organisation; there is a poster for it in the staff room.

But, as LBJ said, this seems to be sadly all too common, and if anything is nothing compared to the massive pisstakes that were recently reported with vast amounts of furloughed people continuing to work for their companies.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

I don't know her but it seems so. Apparently the real death count shows covid deaths have been exaggerated by 82%? And that since March 'nobody is allowed to die of cancer or a heart attack'

82%?
PAH
My acquaintance with a secret NHS link claims COVID death have been inflated a hundredfold and he has this directly from the dean of St Thomas...
I despair but like to keep an eye on it.