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Sorry but frankly I think that's a naive view of how states/governments work.

Modern states have a huge government, not just Johnson and the Cabinet, but also the devolved governments, all the civil servants and other machinery. If there was not substantial support for this proposed policy within government then you'd be seeing that with leaks, briefings etc. And the "choice" made by the government is supported by some experts.

Are Johnson and Cummings scum, sure. But so is Macron, so is Jinping, so is Merkel.
I'm not defending the governments response but I repeat simplifying it to Johnson being scum is as harmful as "trusting the experts'.
 
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bimble said:
This won’t cheer anybody up but is a pretty compelling case imo for why the unknowns make it impossible to say right now what the best course of action is.

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I was going to post yesterday that its daft to think that something as complex and multidisciplinary with so many things we don't know could suggest a clear and consensual solution. I even wrote it and then didn't post it cos I thought it would be ignored (because I'm not a scientist).

eta I'm glad a scientist with expertise has pointed out the uncertainty and the unknowns
 
redsquirrel said:
Sorry but frankly I think that's a naive view of how states/governments work.

Modern states have a huge government, not just Johnson and the Cabinet, but also the devolved governments, all the civil servants and other machinery. If there was not substantial support for this proposed policy within government then you'd be seeing that with leaks, briefings etc. And the "choice" made by the government is supported by some experts.

Are Johnson and Cummings scum, sure. But so is Macron, so is Jinping, so is Merkel.
I'm not defending the governments response but I repeat simplifying it to Johnson being scum is as harmful as "trusting the experts'.
Click to expand...

The tories themselves have spent the last 4 decades undermining the experts, the self-interested professionals (teachers, academics, doctors etc) so it's no wonder is it that its hard for so many people to trust anyone when they have knowledge we don't.
 
If we shift to that position then you bloody well should, as the one thing we don't need is more people saturating the collapsing health system who we cannot treat. They will be undischargeable due to how sick they are and will be shedding enormous numbers of viruses which will infect healthcare workers. Time to think collectively I'm afraid.
 
kropotkin said:
If we shift to that position then you bloody well should, as the one thing we don't need is more people saturating the collapsing health system who we cannot treat. They will be undischargeable due to how sick they are and will be shedding enormous numbers of viruses which will infect healthcare workers. Time to think collectively I'm afraid.
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I understand what you're saying but I know many very fit people over 70 - one of whom climbed Kilimanjaro last year and he's 80.
 
There will be huge social pressure to conform and comply.

My mother won't as she's a 2 year old in the body of an 80 year old smoker who hates doing what she's told. She doesn't really go anywhere anyway but it's likely this will kill her.
 
For myself, as an above-averagely fit and healthy 60 year old - albeit one who seems to catch everything going - I will be treading some sort of middle ground.
My clients are massively skewed towards highly-gregarious under-20s and the the health risks are massively one-directional.
 
LynnDoyleCooper said:
The info I've seen is going to include people with serious underlying health conditions self-isolating as well.
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Does that automatically mean smokers?

My understanding is that smokers are much more at risk. It seems logical therefore to extend the advice/compulsion to them. But I defer to you medical experts.
 
Lord Camomile said:
Matt Hancock, y'know, our Health Secretary, has written an article about the crisis in The Telegraph. Behind a paywall :facepalm:

Apparently the paywall has been lifted now, and I know I shouldn't be surprised any more, but sometimes it's the low level dumbfuckery that really bemuses.
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The same Telegraph that described its own readership as a bunch of oxygen thieves who we'll be better off without? Classy choice.
 
Winot said:
Does that automatically mean smokers?

My understanding is that smokers are much more at risk. It seems logical therefore to extend the advice/compulsion to them. But I defer to you medical experts.
Click to expand...

Wait for the info to be made public, it'll be made clear.
 
Red Cat said:
There will be huge social pressure to conform and comply.

My mother won't as she's a 2 year old in the body of an 80 year old smoker who hates doing what she's told. She doesn't really go anywhere anyway but it's likely this will kill her.
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I'm genuinely worried about my dad for the same reason; could maybe convince him not to go to the pub for a weekend, but 4 months? I would be amazed. He's almost certainly going to get this, and then it's just a case of what it does to him :(
 
Proper Tidy said:
Whatever the rights or wrongs of it, asking any section of society to self isolate for four months is a road to failure. Clearly a large proportion are not going to fully comply.
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Zero relevant knowledge here but tend to agree with the above on the basis of personal experience.Aged parents need all the help they can get and since huge numbers of them especially in lower income brackets are not connected to the internet four months seems an impossibly long time.Cannot really myself understand what Joan Bakewell was saying about a possible silver-lining with people pulling together etc.Seems to be exactly what we are now being told not to do?
 
Lord Camomile said:
I'm genuinely worried about my dad for the same reason; could maybe convince him not to go to the pub for a weekend, but 4 months? I would be amazed. He's almost certainly going to get this, and then it's just a case of what it does to him :(
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My parents local closed a while back and my mum was barred from it (in her seventies) for being obnoxious. I'm more worried about my dad. He has heart failure but plays sport, walks. Despite being fitter than my mum, he had pneumonia last year and then a TIA in the summer. My mum still smokes in the house and doesn't give a fuck. tbh I'd prefer my mum went quite quickly than a long drawn out and painful illness but I don't want that to happen to my dad. Obviously I don't want either of them to die.
 
Duncan2 said:
Cannot really myself understand what Joan Bakewell was saying about a possible silver-lining with people pulling together etc.Seems to be exactly what we are now being told not to do?
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I think this is one of the really counter-intuitive aspects about this whole thing - in times like these many people want to 'pull together' to support each other but, as you say, that's expressly what we're being told not to do. The usual methods won't work and we need to be a bit creative in how we support each other while still doing what's best for the collective.

Um, any ideas, anyone :hmm:

(For what it's worth, I also think 4 months isolation is basically impossible, and figure we surely have to come up with something else?)
 
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Lord Camomile said:
I think this is one of the really counter-intuitive aspects about this whole thing - in times like these many people want to 'pull together' to support each other but, as you say, that's expressly what we're being told not to do. The usual methods won't work and we need to be a bit creative in how we support each other while still doing what's best for the collective.
Click to expand...
See also: "carrying on as normal", as if it's a fucking ideological issue and if we let it disrupt our way of life then we're "letting the virus win" :facepalm:
 
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