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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

You don't think pub priority is partly the government wanting to be popular?

I think you have more faith in them considering the risks than me. Drunk people in confined spaces just doesn't sound sensible.

Yes, popular as it's what most people want, hence the social pressure on them to open which is one of the reasons I gave as a factor. Plus economic etc. It was the 'placate the masses' phrase I objected too, bit close to 'sheeple' for my liking, but maybe that wasn't how you meant it?
 
You don't think pub priority is partly the government wanting to be popular?

I think you have more faith in them considering the risks than me. Drunk people in confined spaces just doesn't sound sensible.

Well the whole thing, lock down, post lock down, all relies quite heavily on how people behave. This virus will still be around next summer, we can't keep things closed until then obviously, so a risk is going to be taken somewhere along the line.
 
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I don't think it's daft. Operatives and clients can both wear masks, meaning that the distance between them isn't a relevant factor. And pushing against the limits of my ignorance of nail bars, perhaps a screen might be possible. People are in one-on-one encounters rather than constantly encountering different people, which is a much more controllable situation. And of course alcohol isn't involved except as a cleaning agent.

Of all the non-essential businesses I want to see back, pubs are top of the list, but I can't see how pubs are anywhere near the top of the list wrt infection risk, and other people of course will have different lists.

But it's the infection risk + mitigating economic damage. If everyone wore masks all the time, perhaps every business could open. That's not going to happen. In the mean time, what's the calculation.

Heard earlier the govt are saying gyms, beauty salons and the like may be able to open in late July anyway.
 
I nam more nervous now about the second wave, than ever was about now, October may be the cruelest month.
Why? Infection levels are plummetting across Europe even as they relax lockdown. Iran has experienced a second wave, but lots of other countries are now down to very low levels, and all the signs are that the UK is heading towards that destination as well.

And if there is a second surge in the autumn, we're massively better equipped now to bash it down South Korea-style. In fact, there's really no excuse not to be able to do that.
 
Yes, popular as it's what most people want, hence the social pressure on them to open which is one of the reasons I gave as a factor. Plus economic etc. It was the 'placate the masses' phrase I objected too, bit close to 'sheeple' for my liking, but maybe that wasn't how you meant it?
From government/policy POV. I am part of the masses to be placated.
 
I don't blame people with underlying health conditions feeling nervous of course not. But there is a general unease amongst people who've not been out, about socialising again. I had it myself, until I met friends in the park a few weeks ago. Last week, I met another friend in a garden, he'd not seen anyone since march IRL. He said he'd been feeling quite jittery and apprehensive. For most people this unease I think will disapate. It should for others once infection rates go right down. Which is not a given but I've found the gloomy predictions and worst case scenario imaginings quite detrimental.

None of which let's the government off the appalling and synicle way they've handled much of this though.

Anyway getting on a train in a couple of weeks is going to be my next. hmm moment.
 
I don't blame people with underlying health conditions feeling nervous of course not. But there is a general unease amongst people who've not been out, about socialising again. I had it myself, until I met friends in the park a few weeks ago. Last week, I met another friend in a garden, he'd not seen anyone since march IRL. He said he'd been feeling quite jittery and apprehensive.

Getting on a train in a couple of weeks is going to be my next. hmm moment.

I've got a train twice now (once last week, once week before), and getting another later today, all times non-peak journeys. It's been OK tbh, first journey was about 15 minutes each way and I think there and back I was pretty much the only person on the train. Last week was about an hour journey and the train was busier but nearly everyone had a mask on, most seats are not being used.

I get the worry about doing things like that, but the risk is very, very low (and getting lower as time passes) and that does have to be balanced with getting out and doing stuff again. It's like all these things with risk and danger, take small steps, push it a bit, see how it goes, step back if it feels too much, don't give yourself a hard time, repeat...
 
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totally, we're all completely institutionalised. I think that - and a knee jerk anti-government sentiment (both of which are totally understandable tbf) is perhaps making people more cautious than they necessarily need to be. Or not, who the fuck knows.

Yeah I think so. I'm seeing quite a lot, within my particular social media bubble, of 'well here we go then, second wave guaranteed now,' rooted in a vaguely left anti-government view. I understand where that comes from but it's not really underpinned by any sort of argument or reasoning beyond that, the vast majority of the time.
 
Why can hairdressers reopen but tattooists can't? It's literally the same thing - I would have even thought hairdressing was higher risk, as they're always working around the head/face, and have a much faster turnaround so will be seeing a lot more people in the average day.
Don't tattooists where the plastic gloves as well?
The places I've had tattoos done have been the cleanest places with the best infection control I've seen. Everything covered in cling film that is changed after every client. Gloves. All they need to do is add masks and they're sorted. It's be happier they're than in lots of other places.
 
Just looking at the dates when Italy & Spain re-opened bars & restaurants, cross referenced to the '7-day average daily deaths' on the dates concerned.

Italy re-opened 18th May - average daily death rate - 181
Spain re-opened 25th May - average daily death rate - 61

Our '7-day average daily deaths' is currently 137, hopefully even lower by 4th July, so we sit between those two examples, and in both those cases, the death rate has continued to drop.

So, maybe it's not too early to start re-opening, unless we end-up being very unlucky.
 
I expect some industries having chains and big earners at the top will have had at least some influence. Nail bars are less likely to be chains. More likely to be operated by POC. More common in more diverse areas. I guess overall more people across the country want a haircut more than they want manicures or pedicures. I'd much rather the latter personally but I'm not interested in doing anything beyond the necessary indoors right now.
 
Of all the non-essential businesses I want to see back, pubs are top of the list, but I can't see how pubs are anywhere near the top of the list wrt infection risk, and other people of course will have different lists.

Well let me put it this way, I would expect pubs to be one of the first things to close again if the situation worsens (or the same locally). And they dont strike me as a totally different order of magnitude of risk compared to some of the things that remain shut such as nightclubs and bowling alleys.

But it depends what 'covid secure' means in practice, how people end up behaving, and crucially in what numbers.

We know from yesterdays press conference that three things which worry Whitty are winter, people not engaging with the test & trace system, and throngs of people behaving in the traditional manner in pubs. I cant say I disagree with him on this. But this moment is one where I would be relaxing various things too, given that we arent really going for a 'try to completely eradicate the virus' approach, and that lockdown fatigue is a real thing, and that if we wait too long to relax stuff we'll end up running into a period of likely increased risk as we move into autumn-winter. I'd rather our entire approach had been different, but since it wasnt, I would probably play a similar hand with the cards as dealt. But then if I were actually in a decision-making position I would have a better idea about how good some of the data is. For example if the sewage-based infection estimates worked really well on a failry local level, that would give me increased confidence to relax certain things, with the idea that we would be able to spot any resulting issues quite quickly.
 
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Just looking at the dates when Italy & Spain re-opened bars & restaurants, cross referenced to the '7-day average daily deaths' on the dates concerned.

Italy re-opened 18th May - average daily death rate - 181
Spain re-opened 25th May - average daily death rate - 61

Our '7-day average daily deaths' is currently 137, hopefully even lower by 4th July, so we sit between those two examples, and in both those cases, the death rate has continued to drop.

So, maybe it's not too early to start re-opening, unless we end-up being very unlucky.
And if we are unlucky, they shut again. I do think it is time to take calculated risks here. It's also way past time to become far more localised in the response. The UK is held back to an extent by the insistence that all these decisions need to come from the centre.
 
Another thing to consider is that it isnt just about the pure risk of infection in a particular scenario, its also about practical considerations if there does turn out to be a significant spreading event in one of these situations.

For example the test & trace system is supposed to carry a lot of the weight of this period. If people approach pubs in a modified way, and the logging of customer info is reasonably well done and people dont supply false details all the time, then that is one thing, we might imagine the tracing system coping. If we imagine instead the typical weekend scene in a town centre with high volumes of people thronging closely together and moving around multiple establishments over the evening, well that starts to resemble more of a nightmare for test & trace. Seems reasonable to expect the reality to be somewhere in between these two extremes, and somewhat difficult for me to predict. I am not naive enough to expect only the new form of sensible behaviour to happen, so my hopes also have to rest on the idea that the chances of coming into contact with an infected person right now are much lower at the moment.
 
Yeah I think so. I'm seeing quite a lot, within my particular social media bubble, of 'well here we go then, second wave guaranteed now,' rooted in a vaguely left anti-government view. I understand where that comes from but it's not really underpinned by any sort of argument or reasoning beyond that, the vast majority of the time.
the thing is, the same people have been saying 'well here we go then, second wave guaranteed now' at least once a week for months - so it's hard not to discount their concerns as scaremongering. TBH I'm not sure they should be opening indoor spaces yet, but that's not really based on anything solid. I doubt I'll be doing much inside any pubs for a few weeks either way.
 
It's hard to get a grip on what the risks are now that the country is opening up again. If you look across the Channel Europe seems to be opening up without a major second spike in infections, even if there's local flare ups here and there. But look in the other direction across the Atlantic and things don't look to be going so well.

The issue is rapidly becoming politicised with Johnson seeking to paint a sunny picture of a fantastic test and trace system, dwindling infections and Britain open for business again, while Starmer is painting a darker picture, talking about a second wave and a faltering test and trace system. As those political positions harden it's going to be hard to get a sense of what is actually going on amongst all the noise.

It does feel about the right time to be opening more stuff, but whether it's the right stuff at the right time only the future will tell. Add into that the possibility that what we're seeing is just a seasonal variation in the spread of the virus and I'll be cautiously taking advantage of having more to do, but keeping an eye on the figures - especially as we get into autumn.
 
I really wonder how much winter/summer is the decisive factor on whether deaths are waxing or waning here. And if so, why? Vitamin D?
 
It's hard to get a grip on what the risks are now that the country is opening up again. If you look across the Channel Europe seems to be opening up without a major second spike in infections, even if there's local flare ups here and there. But look in the other direction across the Atlantic and things don't look to be going so well.

I think comparisons to Europe is better as we all peaked within a few weeks of each other, across the pond it was states largely in the north & east that peaked first, whereas the increased cases now appear largely in the southern & western states.
 
I really wonder how much winter/summer is the decisive factor on whether deaths are waxing or waning here. And if so, why? Vitamin D?
More time spent together indoors with the windows shut in that fug of other people's breath?
 
I think a lot of people are actually scared rather than scaremongering.
Well, yes. As I said, it's understandable. But people are scared of all sorts of stuff they possibly shouldn't be scared of, sometimes for bad reasons. If someone has spent the last few months sharing photos of people on the beach, at the park, at VE day street parties, news stories of illicit raves, etc etc etc with the same refrain 'second wave incoming!' - and then a second wave not coming in - how seriously should I be expected to take their fears now? They've been objectively wrong week in week out, and don't seem to have noticed. Maybe they'll be right this time, but if they are it won't be because they have any great insight into the risks at play here.
 
And if there is a second surge in the autumn, we're massively better equipped now to bash it down South Korea-style. In fact, there's really no excuse not to be able to do that.

We are massively better equipped now because that sort of statement is relative to how terribly poorly we were equipped before. So there has been a big improvement, but that doesnt mean our capabilities are now equivalent to those of highly touted countries like South Korea, or Germany.

Reasons it could still all go wrong later:

If we dont continue to build on the work done so far so that we eventually end up with a decent system.
If too many people fail to engage with the system, if compliance is poor.
If the numbers grow too large for such systems to handle.

The last point has applied to even the successful countries, their excellent test & trace systems still have limits, and it is possible to find articles online that say Germany had to suspend its system for a while during their first wave. And in South Korea, we know that system cannot carry all of the weight on its own, they have still had to impose additional restrictions on people to cope with certain periods.

Concerns about winter as expressed by many including Whitty are based on large amounts of conventional wisdom. Its not impossible to consider that things might not pan out as expected during that season, but it would be unwise to bet against what we think we know about respiratory viruses and winter. With this conventional wisdom tends to come assumptions that the number of cases will become very large over that period, too large for a manual test & trace system to cope with. So the app becomes far more important, and even then there are likely to assumptions that further mitigation measures will be required again, at least for the very peak period.

If I study that conventional wisdom, one of its most obvious blind spots is that its based on our experiences over many years that involve seasonal diseases that we consider inevitable, that we mostly try to deal with via vaccination campaigns and public health messages. Upticks are noted and the system braces for a wave, but there arent usually any non-vaccine attempts to suppress the wave with those other diseases. It will be interesting to see what happens this time, because the way we approach any initial uptick might be quite different to the convention, and so the results might be quite different too. I dont know quite how much we will get to see of this though because I dont know how much our stance will still end up similar to last time. Will we try to press down hard, early, nip it in the bud, or will we revert to stuff that is based on the idea that the winter wave is inevitable, blunting ambitions to do anything other than belatedly trying to blunt the very peak? I think it would be unwise for me to try to judge that this early, it depends what the mood is when we reach that point. It would, for example, be easy to make negative assumptions about peoples levels of compliance with future lockdowns etc, but my thoughts on that would be too heavily influenced by the mood right now, and the mood could be very diferent again by then. Same goes for guessing how far the government would be willing to go, judging how we think they might act in winter when they are currently in cheerleading 'open stuff and remove the temporary safety nets' mode seems ripe for error.
 
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Even if we are in a better position than we were a few months ago (which we all know isn't saying much), health leaders are still expressing concerns that we may not be properly prepared for the real risk of a second wave, according main story on the BBC website.
 
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