Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[Shechemite]

good piece. Not just about LD- and autistic-people

People with autism and learning disabilities have been abandoned in the crisis

We also do not know how many people in psychiatric facilities have been killed by the virus as the data has not been released

inews.co.uk

 

[not-bono-ever]

Fundamentally change the economic settlement as was done after WW2; shift from economic liberalism to interventionist social democracy. It would at least be a step in the right direction.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Capitalist Liberalism will consume its own offspring if left to its own devices- the capitalist pigdogs will support intervention without a qualm if it keeps them in the game.

 

[kalidarkone]

They're still just kind of hoping it will all go away, aren't they?

No I think they are sending people to their deaths. Literally survival of the fittest seems to be the underlying narrative.

 

[Orang Utan]

corporate manslaughter

 

[not-bono-ever]

corporate manslaughter

made thsi point earlier- I can see many large corporates with a proper legal team and risk management baulking at a return from a liability perspective. If you work for someone without that, then...

 

[MickiQ]

You talk as though the economy is force of nature with natural bounds, rather than something that (some) people decide to do.

Nope it is entirely a consequence of human actions both current and cumulative over centuries, entirely a construct of human society. Doesn't mean that doesn't have rules. And so long as most people are following the rules (which they are) it will continue on the way it is.

 

[quimcunx]

Its a sub group of SAGE, not SAGE as a whole. Specifically, it was the Independent Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Behaviours.

That makes more sense. I wondered why actual experts in SAGE would do that.

 

[Humberto]

Nope it is entirely a consequence of human actions both current and cumulative over centuries, entirely a construct of human society. Doesn't mean that doesn't have rules. And so long as most people are following the rules (which they are) it will continue on the way it is.

The only constant is brutality, deception and force.

 

[Mation]

Nope it is entirely a consequence of human actions both current and cumulative over centuries, entirely a construct of human society. Doesn't mean that doesn't have rules. And so long as most people are following the rules (which they are) it will continue on the way it is.

There's a difference between rules and conventions, and the conventions of economics under this (any?) system look less and less like rules, given that they change according to (some) people's response to their application. It's a festering pile of silly putty.

 

[belboid]

This was an official government slide, as displayed at the P M briefing today.

So we're actually at Alert Level 219,183.9432173 I believe

 

[MickiQ]

The only constant is brutality, deception and force.

They've played their part certainly, but the whole of human society not just the economy works because most people believe in it, It's a huge con trick that has no physical existence yet is real because the vast majority of people believe it is. It can only be changed when enough people believe it has changed and they don't.
The rules are completely arbitary and have grown up often by chance. They're still the rules and individuals and indeed entire nations play by these rules because everyone else does.
You want to change them fine so do I, how do you suggest we go about it?

 

[MickiQ]

There's a difference between rules and conventions, and the conventions of economics under this (any?) system look less and less like rules, given that they change according to (some) people's response to their application. It's a festering pile of silly putty.

Yep not arguing with you but we are stuck with it because almost all the rest of humanity goes along with it.

 

[ddraig]

I’m gonna need to see some working out that doesn’t involve an international revolution and redistribution of billionaires wealth. Because I’m not that keen that people starve in food bank queues whilst people discuss theoretical possibilities.

Could cover it by not buying a few weapons that'll never be used! (I know the 'defence expenditure' covers more stuff than weapons)
Point 3 on this gov doc for 2017

Finance and economics annual statistical bulletin: international defence 2018

www.gov.uk

"It can clearly be seen in Figure 1 that the USA maintains its position as the largest defence spender in NATO, with expenditure of $686 billion, representing 3.6% of their GDP in 2017. The USA spent more than twice as much on defence in 2017 than the rest of NATO combined. The UK was the second highest spender in NATO in 2017, spending $55.3 billion on defence."

 

[keybored]

So we're actually at Alert Level 219,183.9432173 I believe

219 thousand and 183 thousand point 943 teen hundred twentyonety 73 zillions

 

[ddraig]

Scrap Trident. There, that was easy.

Exactly this! (hadn't read this far when I posted about covering it by not buying a few weapons)
Food NOT Bombs
Hospitals NOT Bombs
Doctors NOT Bombs
Nurses NOT Bombs
PPE NOT Bombs
etc etc

 

[Petcha]

View attachment 211913

This was an official government slide, as displayed at the P M briefing today.

So we're actually at Alert Level 219,183.9432173 I believe

That cannot be for real

 

[2hats]

That cannot be for real

 

[two sheds]

That cannot be for real

Priti Patel got involved at some level.

 

[2hats]

 

[editor]

View attachment 211913

This was an official government slide, as displayed at the P M briefing today.

So we're actually at Alert Level 219,183.9432173 I believe

Here's another graphic from Brass Eye

 

[gosub]

So well it is a recognised pandemic in which will be switching from the orange light-bulb to the yellow light-bulb and anyone who stupid enough to think anything in last couple of months warranted full on red lightbulbs has n't really grasped how bad things could be

 

[Petcha]

I didn't see the presentation and to be honest assumed that was a joke Boris twitter feed. But with 2.6m followers it must be real. He's being ripped apart by boffins on there.

 

[Edie]

How can you possibly say that, given we have the second highest number of deaths in the world?

I don’t wanna get in the business of defending every government decision since the pandemic started. I only say that because the aim of lockdown was to flatten the curve and protect the NHS, and to that extent it’s done exactly as intended. I’m sure the analysis of exactly what and when should have happened will occur for decades, and the article in The Times was certainly instructive.

It is however a bit disingenuous to say second highest number of deaths. There’s a lot of ways of counting, and a lot of ways of presenting those statistics, as you know. For example,Coronavirus deaths per million by country | Statista

 

[Edie]

That equation tho

 

[Mation]

Here's another graphic from Brass Eye

View attachment 211917

A bouncy covometer! It's gonna be great!

 

[flypanam]

Could cover it by not buying a few weapons that'll never be used! (I know the 'defence expenditure' covers more stuff than weapons)
Point 3 on this gov doc for 2017

Finance and economics annual statistical bulletin: international defence 2018

www.gov.uk

"It can clearly be seen in Figure 1 that the USA maintains its position as the largest defence spender in NATO, with expenditure of $686 billion, representing 3.6% of their GDP in 2017. The USA spent more than twice as much on defence in 2017 than the rest of NATO combined. The UK was the second highest spender in NATO in 2017, spending $55.3 billion on defence."

That’s one way, but given they are not borrowing from international markets but printing money via the BofE, which means the government essentially could decide how much and for how long they want to pay it Back, So racking up debt isn’t really an issue.

 

[andysays]

Edie's on the front line you numpty.

I know Edie is still working, so are lots of people. The question here is specifically about being obliged to go to work on public transport.

Edie seems to be suggesting that people should have to go to work on public transport if they can't get there any other way, and yet is unwilling to say if she would do that herself. I think it's reasonable to point that out.

(as an aside, under normal circumstances, I take a bus to work; since this began, I've been taking a work van home so that I don't have to take the bus. I've also been collecting and dropping off one of my colleagues so that he doesn't have to take the bus. I would not be happy about taking the bus, or even worse the tube, to work at the moment (ETA especially as it's likely to become even more crowded, whatever Boris says...), and I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to be unwilling, and unreasonable to dismiss people's fears and say they have to do it for the sake of the economy)

And it's Eddy who's on the frontline, you numpty

 

[two sheds]

View attachment 211913

This was an official government slide, as displayed at the P M briefing today.

So we're actually at Alert Level 219,183.9432173 I believe

Jesus they even got R as "rate of infection" wrong. As pointed out elsewhere on here it's not a rate it's a ratio.

I hadn't realized though that R0 only refers to at the start of a contagious disease.

R0, pronounced “R naught,” is a mathematical term that indicates how contagious an infectious disease is. It’s also referred to as the reproduction number. As an infection is transmitted to new people, it reproduces itself.

R0 tells you the average number of people who will contract a contagious disease from one person with that disease. It specifically applies to a population of people who were previously free of infection and haven’t been vaccinated.

The R0 for COVID-19 is a median of 5.7, according to a study published online in Emerging Infectious Diseases. That’s about double an earlier R0 estimate of 2.2 to 2.7

What Is R0? Gauging Contagious Infections

R0 indicates how contagious a disease is. Learn how it works and the R0 values for various diseases.

www.healthline.com

And as someone else pointed out, we can't really know what it is now because we're not testing people.

 

[Edie]

I know Edie is still working, so are lots of people. The question here is specifically about being obliged to go to work on public transport.

Edie seems to be suggesting that people should have to go to work on public transport if they can't get there any other way, and yet is unwilling to say if she would do that herself. I think it's reasonable to point that out.

(as an aside, under normal circumstances, I take a bus to work; since this began, I've been taking a work van home so that I don't have to take the bus. I've also been collecting and dropping off one of my colleagues so that he doesn't have to take the bus. I would not be happy about taking the bus, or even worse the tube, to work at the moment (ETA especially as it's likely to become even more crowded, whatever Boris says...), and I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to be unwilling, and unreasonable to dismiss people's fears and say they have to do it for the sake of the economy)

And it's Eddie who's on the frontline, you numpty

Oh goodness for the record then yes of course I’d be prepared to take public transport. I’ve been working with dying covid patients wearing a fucking surgical mask and a dinner lady apron, of course I’d sit upstairs on the number 6 My point is that doesn’t make my opinion any more or less valid than yours.

Like I said to Orang Utan maybe it should be down to personal choice for a period. Note this hasn’t been an option for nhs workers or supermarket staff or delivery drivers or police etc.

 

[chilango]

Like I said to Orang Utan maybe it should be down to personal choice for a period. Note this hasn’t been an option for nhs workers or supermarket staff or delivery drivers or police etc.

...and that's the problem. Most people won't get the choice. Their bosses will decide.