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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

How about you provide some evidence that Whitty or Vallance said that “covid must be allowed to move through the population”.

The UK experts may have lots to learn from this pandemic, but that discussion will be appropriate in a few years time, when we can stand back and analyse how things worked out based on each countries actions and timings. IMHO no conclusions can be currently drawn - so talking about people having deaths on their hands is totally out of order.
If you watch the interview with the epidemiologist currently advising in Sweden on the Sweden thread, that is exactly how he characterises Sweden's approach (along with protecting the old as it happens) and it is exactly how he characterises the Uk's approach before the uey taken shortly before lockdown - he expresses his disappointment that the UK changed tack.

It's not such an outlandish suggestion from azrael here.
 
If you watch the interview with the epidemiologist currently advising in Sweden on the Sweden thread, that is exactly how he characterises Sweden's approach (along with protecting the old as it happens) and it is exactly how he characterises the Uk's approach before the uey taken shortly before lockdown - he expresses his disappointment that the UK changed tack.

It's not such an outlandish suggestion from azrael here.
[YouTube]

Here's a video Patrick Vallance from 13 March. From four minutes in, he clearly lays out that the British government will make no attempt to stop the virus moving through the population, that "herd immunity" is the goal, and that 60% infection is needed to achieve it. The presenter is visibly horrified at the potential death toll.

It was a monstrous plan from the start, born of defeatism that ignored clinical data from Asia, and its architects must be held to account for what they've done.
 
[YouTube]

Here's a video Patrick Vallance from 13 March. From four minutes in, he clearly lays out that the British government will make no attempt to stop the virus moving through the population, that "herd immunity" is the goal, and that 60% infection is needed to achieve it. The presenter is visibly horrified at the potential death toll.

It was a monstrous plan from the start, born of defeatism that ignored clinical data from Asia, and its architects must be held to account for what they've done.

Yep. That's very clear. tbf we have been over this before so the criticism of you on this point is misplaced. This was the UK's policy up to about six weeks ago and it is still Sweden's policy today. Protect the vulnerable, slow the spread so that it doesn't overwhelm the health service (the 'flatten the curve' shit they no longer talk about), but allow it to spread as widely as possible, ultimately.
 
I'm slightly annoyed to of just watched a Barclays self promotion ad for granting funds to business

they have enough money for this ballocks but will not lend to any small business that does not break over 100 grand a year

why a national ad where basically fuck all people apply for the funds



:hmm::mad:
 
This 'Guardian' report has the exact same "misreading". As have a string of reports released since the 'Times' expose of the government's initial response. In recent days, there's been a clear pattern of advisors attempting to undermine ministers. I posted a detailed thread from Anthony Costello, formerly of the W.H.O., outlining the splits, and who's been driving policy, which fits with what I've long suspected. If this interests you I can only suggest you read it. Here it is:-



As for influenza, I said weeks ago we as a society have been too lax about this, a failing I certainly apply to myself. I've also said weeks ago that the collapse of local public health (and local government in general) as been a major contributing factor to this disaster. Beyond the policial analysis, we don't appear to disagree that much.


There is a reasonable chunk of overlap between us in places, which is probably why I cant help arguing with you over some specific areas repeatedly, rather than just leaving alone.

I'm not always happy with the totality of my descriptions of things, sometimes some important aspect seems missing. Sometimes its because I am conservative with certain details I dont know, I dont like to assume, especially when there are conflicting indicators. For example, I will normally point out when someone says something noteworthy for its lack of commitment, such as Whitty and certain aspects of testing the other day. But then some time before that Whitty was also the one that made clear there were lessons to learn from Germany. I should presume that Costello actually gets to talk to certain people involved in a way that I cannot, I have no special access and can only operate in the way I do because of the stuff that comes out through journalists and these days certain parts of the web featuring individuals who have decided to be open. From that timeline I cannot tell quite how much more he knows, he is mostly relying on the same clues I have had to, but I'm wary of reading too much into them. I guess he knows more about SAGE splits than me, although some of that also seems clear only because one or two members arent afraid to voice some of their opinions in public. The rest remains a mystery to me.

Probably the reason I chose to focus so much on describing these things in terms of 'the orthodoxy', and why I take comments and even glimpses of actual opinions from officialdom with a pinch of salt, is that I expect them to be slow and plodding and stuck in their ways. Hell much of science ends up like that, which is a whole topic in itself. Science is not in reality a pure thing that can be isolated from individual and group phenomenon ranging from general ineptitude to lazy thinking to vested interests to dogma to basic human ego, pride, saving face and protecting reputations and positions. Some scientists, doctors etc retain a degree of open-mindedness and flexibility of thought, but specialisation in general does tend to invite a narrowing of mind that can have unfortunate implications.

Politicians have various orthodoxies too. But a big difference is on display at a time like this - given certain circumstances, all the political equations may change radically overnight. When that happens, politicians have to adapt and embrace the new political normal in order to survive, potentially at a speed that far outruns the orthodoxy of scientific and medical officialdom. The political orthodoxy could have been completely dumped before officialdom has even gotten round to their initial defence their own orthodox position. Thats probably part of what we see now, and yes some of awkwardness that results could be studied via old episodes of Yes Minister. But I dont have the real inside info, so I am limited in how much of this I can dissect in near-realtime. So I largely prefer not to bother, so long as it has become clear enough what the official policy really is. Because even if the non-elected-politician parts of officialdom arent really up for it, they will still end up getting dragged along for the ride, and eventually even their own dogmas will evolve or die.

As I've said before, I suppose I am acutely aware of the power of orthodoxy because its the only reason I was able to sound like I knew what would happen next in February. That side of things was all so very predictable! I do consider it a bit of a miracle that we even managed to change approach when we did, imagine how much better it would have been if done a few weeks earlier, and how much worse if done a week or so even later than it was. And I'm not even convinced that the country had all the ingredients on its own to make that miracle come about, I think we are still too stunted by the top-down petty bullshit this country is renowned for. Rather its thanks to the far more worldly realtime view of things we have these days that disaster was partially averted. Broken Britain with the wrong approach is so much harder to disguise when people are able to look at what other countries were doing, and when, and make the right noises at the right volume in the nick of time!
 
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This may already have been posted, if so, sure it will be pointed out:oldthumbsup:. its odd but when I heard that the dried poo of covid patient, if it got blown around as air born and infectious.. I wondered about this...
 
Fuck, that’s scared the shit out of me
Why has it scared the shit out of you?

Many essential workers, way beyond the NHS and other medical/care workers, are still going to work every day and carrying out their work like distributing food and clearing away rubbish, without which society would quickly struggle to function.

Why is it so scary to think that some civil servants and local government workers who are currently at home on special leave on full pay might be transferred into different work helping to do contact tracing and other tasks related to combating corona virus?
 
Not especially, if safe distancing in the offices is carefully enforced.
I should have emphasised that proviso more though.
I also imagine that relevant staff would really have to be tested themselves.
I want and need to find out details!
I've not followed the context of this and I'm no expert but I don't think safe distancing in a modern office environment is feasible. Air conditioning and so on makes it impossible. I think you could only safely put select people back there en masses and it becomes so complicated that it can't be done in practice.
 
Doctor pleads for PPE on his ward in hospital, is refused because 'supplies need to be used sensibly' (remember that line?) and because, get this for management speak, of 'business continuity'.

Dies.

His son has published his emails.


In one, Tun said: “We do not have any basic surgical masks for Caversham ward neuro-rehab medical team. The ward stock has been taken by ICU [intensive care], according to a staff nurse … We do not have eye protection kits, gowns nor scrubs.”

However, one manager emailed the ward team to refuse his requests. They said: “Matron … will confirm that you don’t have any ‘hot’ [confirmed Covid-19] patients on your ward. You do not require PPE currently. It’s ‘business continuity’ at this time.”

A second manager also refused. Their response acknowledged that PPE was in short supply and made clear that personnel in other areas of the hospital were deemed to need it more. “I am unable to order masks for Caversham without any suspected or confirmed cases on the ward,” the manager said.

“These supplies are not widely available and need to be used sensibly for those staff most at risk (ie those looking after suspected or confirmed cases). I will be able to get supplies immediately if and when you need them.”

In his reply, Tun pointed out that the hospital could not know which patients had caught the virus because at the time it was not testing most people with symptoms – fever, cough and breathlessness – and therefore his Caversham ward could have undetected cases.

Tun said in a further email: “If we are not prepared in advance before the ward becomes ‘hot’, it will be too little and too late.”
 
Amendments to The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 have been made. They include permitting livestock auctions, and a requirement for outdoor swimming pools to close. People are also now allowed to leave home for the purpose of visiting a burial ground or garden of remembrance to pay respects to a member of their household, a family member or friend.
 
Despite that, Hunt is relatively forgiving of the government's tardy response, generously asserting that: "No one can reasonably expect governments to have a crystal ball with a brand new virus, so full credit to the government for being willing to learn from international best practice, first on ramping up testing and now on mass contact tracing".

Bearing in mind that Hunt himself is part of the failed planning process, however, there must surely be an element of back-covering here. The government didn't need a crystal ball. It had been warned by the WHO to prepare for SARS and, instead the British government (along with many others, it must be said) chose to lump this very different disease in with influenza.

At the heart of the government's current difficulties is this core error, repeated not once but many times. It was missed by a succession of experts, the civil servants and politicians, none of whom thought to refer back to the original WHO regulations which categorised SARS separately from influenza.

Even with that, where planning was so much reliant on the rapid ability to produce a vaccine - along with the expectation that we would get plenty of warning of a new viral outbreak - no one thought to ask how we would deal with an epidemic where there was no immediate prospect of a vaccine and where antiviral drugs to aid in treatment would not be available.

The point here is that, in terms of dealing with communicable diseases, the influenza plan is the outlier. Only because technology has become so advanced have we been able to abandon the basic principles of epidemic management. For too long, we have rested on the complacent belief that we can treat the victims of the disease and hold the fort long enough, without attempting to suppress the epidemic, until a vaccine becomes available.

Not once then in fifteen years have the legions of highly-paid, self-important officials, scientists and politicians addressed the nightmare scenario that we have been facing for decades, where we were challenged by a highly infectious and potentially lethal novel virus, for which there was no vaccine.
Its report, published in 2008, recalled "sobering" advice from government ministers that: "While there has not been a pandemic since 1968, another one is inevitable". It had been estimated that the next pandemic could kill between two and 50 million people worldwide, and between 50,000 and 75,000 deaths in the UK.

Twelve years later, we are in the grip of that pandemic and will be able to count ourselves fortunate if the death rate can be contained between 50,000 and 75,000. As for the socio-economic disruption, the Committee was uncannily prescient: "massive" is almost an understatement.

Despite Hunt's generosity, therefore, this pandemic was both predictable and predicted. But when it came to the crunch, government was unprepared. And while it is all very well being wise after the event, there were an awful lot of people wise before it happened. This and many other governments chose not to listen.
 
Why has it scared the shit out of you?

Many essential workers, way beyond the NHS and other medical/care workers, are still going to work every day and carrying out their work like distributing food and clearing away rubbish, without which society would quickly struggle to function.

Why is it so scary to think that some civil servants and local government workers who are currently at home on special leave on full pay might be transferred into different work helping to do contact tracing and other tasks related to combating corona virus?
Cos I don’t want to catch it if I get reassigned
 
Cos I don’t want to catch it if I get reassigned
No one wants to catch, even those of us who are still working more or less as normal while the majority are having a paid holiday.

Don't worry, I doubt you will be reassigned to anything dangerous anyway, you can just hide away at home while others deal with it.
 
No one wants to catch, even those of us who are still working more or less as normal while the majority are having a paid holiday.

Don't worry, I doubt you will be reassigned to anything dangerous anyway, you can just hide away at home while others deal with it.
i'm working from home anyway. if they're reassigning people to do this contact tracing, i will have to refuse as I live with my 77 year old pa and don't want to expose him to any danger
 
No one wants to catch, even those of us who are still working more or less as normal while the majority are having a paid holiday.

Don't worry, I doubt you will be reassigned to anything dangerous anyway, you can just hide away at home while others deal with it.
This is out of line. How about you stop assuming you know about other people's lives when you don't?
 
William of Walworth said:
Not especially, if safe distancing in the offices is carefully enforced.
I should have emphasised that proviso more though.
I also imagine that relevant staff would really have to be tested themselves.
I want and need to find out details!

I've not followed the context of this and I'm no expert but I don't think safe distancing in a modern office environment is feasible. Air conditioning and so on makes it impossible. I think you could only safely put select people back there en masses and it becomes so complicated that it can't be done in practice.

Thanks for pointing out the air-conditioning aspect -- I'd not thought of that at all, to be honest :eek:

In itself, that may make it a fair bit less likely that we're asked back in.
So maybe they'll have WFH plans?
Those would require a works laptop (and probably other bits) to be sent to me, as their policy is only to trust people to work outside works HQ with works IT, understandably.

You've given me more questions to ask now anyway, if I do get the call.
Cheers :)
 
They have reduced us to mere existence. Eat, sleep, work, eat, sleep, work and nothing more. That's how my life feels right now.

Was thinking about this, when they start easing the restrictions, it won't be pubs, cinemas, gigs that can open for a long time. That's basically the only places I go apart from work and shops. I think we'll be WFH for quite a while at our place anyway and shops are still a bit of a challenge. Bet even the gym's won't re-open in the first easing.

<makes list of friends with garden access>
 
Why has it scared the shit out of you?

Many essential workers, way beyond the NHS and other medical/care workers, are still going to work every day and carrying out their work like distributing food and clearing away rubbish, without which society would quickly struggle to function.

Why is it so scary to think that some civil servants and local government workers who are currently at home on special leave on full pay might be transferred into different work helping to do contact tracing and other tasks related to combating corona virus?

:cool:
I'd be VERY happy to be working if required and I'm sure that a lot of my colleagues will be thinking similarly.
We don't know yet whether or not it will happen, and the difficulties of doing it in the offices will have to be taken into account.
ETA : And whether ir not WFH is even possible ... who knows?
Luckily, most of us are PCS, and their Covid newsletter emphasises how much the union insists on being involved with working conditions discussion.
But I'd be glad to work if able! :)
ETA : and if safe, obviously. :hmm:
 
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Was thinking about this, when they start easing the restrictions, it won't be pubs, cinemas, gigs that can open for a long time. That's basically the only places I go apart from work and shops. I think we'll be WFH for quite a while at our place anyway and shops are still a bit of a challenge. Bet even the gym's won't re-open in the first easing.

<makes list of friends with garden access>

Gyms might be fucked because people are getting used to working out at home. OTOH, people are working out at home, so might be more into it when the lockdown eases.

But gyms tend to be virtually airtight, IME. And people sweat everywhere, and breathe heavily. Yup, even if they're allowed to open, people won't go there.

Does anyone on here have a gym membership? Are they still expecting people to keep paying when the gym's shut?
 
Thanks for pointing out the air-conditioning aspect -- I'd not thought of that at all, to be honest :eek:

In itself, that may make it a fair bit less likely that we're asked back in.
So maybe they'll have WFH plans?
Those would require a works laptop (and probably other bits) to be sent to me, as their policy is only to trust people to work outside works HQ with works IT, understandably.

You've given me more questions to ask now anyway, if I do get the call.
Cheers :)
My employer sent out 7000 laptops in the first week of lockdown - they don't want us at home sitting idle!
 
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