Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[Spandex]

I've always been of the opinion their reluctance to move to lockdown was entirely rooted in a belief of the importance of the economy over people's safety and health. I would not be at all surprised to see a move back to 'herd immunity' at some point with the justification of 'we just can't afford this anymore'.



I thought the UK government pissed-offness with Wales for 'jumping the gun' on extending lockdown spoke volumes yesterday. As if the whole country doesn't realise nothing has changed, except for the worse. As if it was a major shock that Wales should announce what it did. It's politics isn't it? Most of us can see we're in for a long period of chaos, whatever form that takes. But the government feel they can't let that particular cat out of the bag yet. Partly because they don't want to freak everyone out (social unrest?). And partly because they are an incompetent bunch of fuckwits managing this on the hoof.

The government's whole approach does seem to be: wait until even the slowest person in the country has figured out what is going to happen before announcing anything.

That was true before they admitted the catastrophe was on us in the UK, that schools were going to close, that the lockdown was happening, that the PM was critically ill in hospital. Whatever is coming next we'll all have guessed before they announce it. I suppose it's one way of building consensus. Or maybe they're just clueless, or paralised by fear or hoping it'll all go away or that a cheaper alternative will show up or all of these at once. Whatever it is they're a useless shower of shitbags that I wouldn't trust to lead me across a pedestrianised road.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The government's whole approach does seem to be: wait until even the slowest person in the country has figured out what is going to happen before announcing anything.

That was true before they admitted the catastrophe was on us in the UK, that schools were going to close, that the lockdown was happening, that the PM was critically ill in hospital. Whatever is coming next we'll all have guessed before they announce it. I suppose it's one way of building consensus. Or maybe they're just clueless, or paralised by fear or hoping it'll all go away or that a cheaper alternative will show up or all of these at once. Whatever it is they're a useless shower of shitbags that I wouldn't trust to lead me across a pedestrianised road.

It's not just a question of when they announce it, it's the fact that they announce something first and then work out how to do it. They must have known lockdown was coming but they seemed to have no concrete measure in place at all. No plan to secure food supplies, to protect vulnerable people, no plan for enforcement of anything. That was cobbled together on the hoof, or just ignored altogether.

I'm increasingly thinking this government cant survive this calamity. We're a few bad days away from taking the mantle of worst outbreak in Europe, even with the fudged numbers. They can't possibly spin their way out of that.

 

[Cerberus]

It's not just a question of when they announce it, it's the fact that they announce something first and then work out how to do it. They must have known lockdown was coming but they seemed to have no concrete measure in place at all. No plan to secure food supplies, to protect vulnerable people, no plan for enforcement of anything. That was cobbled together on the hoof, or just ignored altogether.

I'm increasingly thinking this government cant survive this calamity. We're a few bad days away from taking the mantle of worst outbreak in Europe, even with the fudged numbers. They can't possibly spin their way out of that.

In a normal world I’d make you correct SpookyFrank but unfortunately I disagree (re: govt survival).

I’m replying because i had the same conversation with my brother and sister-in-law
last night (their view was that once this was over there would have to be a reckoning - I disagreed). Maybe the bubbles and echo chambers we live in have been amplified in this age of lockdown. The kind of chat we have here on Urban and within our social media groups - sharing well researched articles written by experts and backed up by data - isn’t a reflection of society as a whole.

I’m sure I’m insulting your intelligence here and you are well aware of the above. This is a country after all that gave an overwhelming majority to Johnson’s Tory’s only months ago. People really don’t seem to see the irony in clapping for the NHS having voted Conservative. Look at the front pages of the shit rags this morning - all deliriously happy for Boris and imploring their readers to give him the love. like it or not, the media sometimes determines the narrative yet at other times, acts as a weathervane.

On dial ins at work and chatting with friends on WhatsApp and family members on the phone this week I’ve asked people what they think of certain govt policies and decisions and by and large the consensus has been ‘trying to do a near impossible job in v trying circumstances’ and ‘isn’t that Rishi Sunak an excellent public speaker’. This from a range of voters and with attitudes that range from engaged to apathetic.

Long time lurker on these COVID threads (which really have been excellent and an example of much that is great about U75) first time caller and I share your sense of blame toward the Government. I just don’t think anything will change. In fact, if you offered me a free bet, I’d bet that in the long term Boris and his pals will come out of this smelling of roses

 

[Anju]

Out for my morning dog walk and just seen a B&Q delivery van with two people in it. I would think that a whole day together in the cab plus carrying heavy deliveries huffing and puffing all over the place would be really high risk.

 

[SpookyFrank]

In a normal world I’d make you correct SpookyFrank but unfortunately I disagree (re: govt survival).

I’m replying because i had the same conversation with my brother and sister-in-law
last night (their view was that once this was over there would have to be a reckoning - I disagreed). Maybe the bubbles and echo chambers we live in have been amplified in this age of lockdown. The kind of chat we have here on Urban and within our social media groups - sharing well researched articles written by experts and backed up by data - isn’t a reflection of society as a whole.

I’m sure I’m insulting your intelligence here and you are well aware of the above. This is a country after all that gave an overwhelming majority to Johnson’s Tory’s only months ago. People really don’t seem to see the irony in clapping for the NHS having voted Conservative. Look at the front pages of the shit rags this morning - all deliriously happy for Boris and imploring their readers to give him the love. like it or not, the media sometimes determines the narrative yet at other times, acts as a weathervane.

On dial ins at work and chatting with friends on WhatsApp and family members on the phone this week I’ve asked people what they think of certain govt policies and decisions and by and large the consensus has been ‘trying to do a near impossible job in v trying circumstances’ and ‘isn’t that Rishi Sunak an excellent public speaker’. This from a range of voters and with attitudes that range from engaged to apathetic.

Long time lurker on these COVID threads (which really have been excellent and an example of much that is great about U75) first time caller and I share your sense of blame toward the Government. I just don’t think anything will change. In fact, if you offered me a free bet, I’d bet that in the long term Boris and his pals will come out of this smelling of roses

Well yes and I'm aware that the bubble/echo chamber effect did make me wildly overestimate Corbyn's prospects at the last GE. But I don't think this is the same at all.

There is a point at which the scale of the problem becomes impossible to hide. I don't think that will be during the current peak, which I'm still expecting to level off a bit in the near future, but months down the line when nations with proper testing, contact tracing and community healthcare are returning to something like normality and the UK is still seeing large numbers of deaths and huge levels of disruption. The plan to get this over with at whatever cost and come out the other side first to get a jump on our competitors will have had the exact opposite effect.

More importantly, the tories are losing their media allies. Johnson's brush with death will have bought him a week's grace at best, but in that week the issues the people were attacking him over have all continued to get worse. Maitliss' monologue has gained a lot of traction, but I don't think that in itself is the watershed moment some people are thinking it is. When they have to say on the six o clock news that we now have the highest death toll in Europe, that'll be a watershed moment. The point where even those shameless bootlickers at the BBC can't continue to back the tories, that won't be one idenfitifable moment but I believe it will come sooner or later.

I should point out here that I'm not spooling out some fantasy version of events. This is not how change should happen. The 'post war consensus' wasn't really a consensus, it was a compromise. And it was vulnerable because of that. Whatever politics emerges from this whole shitshow it will still have the stain of neoliberalism on it, because that ideology has been ground in too deep for too long. Landlordism will survive. Financial speculation will survive, and will continue to be a driving force. The work that's needed to ensure this is already being done, they've got on it much quicker than they have the work needed to defeat the actual outbreak. The income protection stuff is all there to make sure there doesn't need to be a rent freeze, or worse rent strikes. It is protection for banks and speculators, not workers. I do expect Sunak to emerge from this with some credit to his name, and to be an ongoing danger as a result. I'm not going to call 'Sunak/Starmer national government' just yet but it doesn't seem like a totally absurd propostion.

And of course in Starmer we have the ideal Labour leader to help create a new neoliberal-lite fake consensus. He might as well have been built in a factory for that exact purpose.

 

[William of Walworth]

Warning: early morning wild speculation time....

There are some things not quite adding up for me with this. The dates of the projected peak, the way public expectations of lock-down and length of time it'll be there for, the construction of all these mega-hospitals around the country that won't be ready for quite a while, the already near collapse some hospitals seem to be in, and a few other things.

I can't quite articulate it exactly, but it does make me feel that this is going to be a much longer and more destructive and chaotic period of time than is being generally acknowledged at the moment.... or am I way off the mark?

It's going to be going on until the majority of the population has had it. The Gov don't seem keen to discuss this though. 2020 is going to be shite all year

I'm concurring with Lynn's pessimistic outlook broadly, but "all year"?
There's surely still a danger of over-accentuating the negatives, timescale wise ..... ??

 

[kebabking]

Weapons grade shit-gibbons are still out I see...


You'd think that after the CC of Northants police was publicly chastised by the Home Secretary for 'policing' well outside the law just yesterday, a little circumspection would have been in order from our esteemed Constabulary, but apparently not....

 

[Brainaddict]

They're really trying to police 'non-essential' shopping, despite having no mandate to do that? Jesus christ.

 

[LDC]

Apparently it was Tweeted just after a thank you for a delivery of 'essential' sweets to their station.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I'm concurring with Lynn's pessimistic outlook broadly, but "all year"?
There's surely still a danger of over-accentuating the negatives, timescale wise ..... ??

Yes, all year. And into the next. This isn’t going away in a couple of months. And the things you like the most - the gigs, festivals etc will be in the very last wave to go back to normal.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Weapons grade shit-gibbons are still out I see...
View attachment 205828

You'd think that after the CC of Northants police was publicly chastised by the Home Secretary for 'policing' well outside the law just yesterday, a little circumspection would have been in order from our esteemed Constabulary, but apparently not....

So they were in the shop just checking to see who was in which aisle? They're not quite grasping this concept of 'essential' are they?

 

[Red Cat]

I'm concurring with Lynn's pessimistic outlook broadly, but "all year"?
There's surely still a danger of over-accentuating the negatives, timescale wise ..... ??

What do you think is going to happen?

 

[zahir]

I'm concurring with Lynn's pessimistic outlook broadly, but "all year"?
There's surely still a danger of over-accentuating the negatives, timescale wise ..... ??

If you don’t see this going on “all year” then what exit strategy do you see that could end it sooner?

 

[LDC]

I'm concurring with Lynn's pessimistic outlook broadly, but "all year"?
There's surely still a danger of over-accentuating the negatives, timescale wise ..... ??

I get that's there's a danger of looking at the planning and steps that are being taken for the worst case scenario and thinking that's the one that'll happen. But some initial research is showing that a much smaller percentage of people have it asymptomatically, and a much smaller percentage of the population generally have had it already than thought.

What with that and a vaccine at least 12 months away (at best, and even if it's possible) and even assuming immunity is good once you've had it, and that it doesn't mutate into anything worse this is going to be something that goes beyond this year I'd bet.

 

[killer b]

What do you think is going to happen?

He's still holding out for some late summer festivals

 

[elbows]

There are reasons I'm just taking it one week at a time. I dont want to deviate from that too much, at least not this month.

But we arent supposed to go back to 'normal' after the first wave, so in the broadest sense this will go on for a long time.

One of the reasons I am taking something of a break for the next days is that the press are driving me mad with all the questions about exit strategy. I shall be ignoring that as much as possible, and instead looking at what other countries, which are further ahead than us or managed to lockdown when their epidemics were a fraction of the size of ours, will do about relaxing of measures.

 

[little_legs]

Weapons grade shit-gibbons are still out I see...
View attachment 205828

You'd think that after the CC of Northants police was publicly chastised by the Home Secretary for 'policing' well outside the law just yesterday, a little circumspection would have been in order from our esteemed Constabulary, but apparently not....

they have deleted this tweet, probably realised it wasn't a good look

 

[LDC]

There are reasons I'm just taking it one week at a time. I dont want to deviate from that too much, at least not this month.

But we arent supposed to go back to 'normal' after the first wave, so in the broadest sense this will go on for a long time.

One of the reasons I am taking something of a break for the next days is that the press are driving me mad with all the questions about exit strategy. I shall be ignoring that as much as possible, and instead looking at what other countries, which are further ahead than us or managed to lockdown when their epidemics were a fraction of the size of ours, will do about relaxing of measures.

Yeah, the press fixation on the lockdown being relaxed soon and the 'exit strategy' is doing my head in too. I think it's adding to a bit of a public feeling that maybe we're nearing the end of it and things can be relaxed.

 

[Supine]

I'm concurring with Lynn's pessimistic outlook broadly, but "all year"?
There's surely still a danger of over-accentuating the negatives, timescale wise ..... ??

To clarify - when I say all year I don't mean complete lock down. I think measures will be relaxed as nhs capacity becomes available. I suspect the Gov will try to find ways to relax measures that get younger people free first to protect the more vulnerable until herd or vaccines protects them.

 

[kebabking]

they have deleted this tweet, probably realised it wasn't a good look

Yeah, they did a two-tweet 'clarification' as well - apparently the officer had been spoken to, and described as overly exuberant. One hopes he was described as other things to his face, and the spoken to didn't revolve around not getting caught....

 

[elbows]

The Guardian had a go at trying to figure out what sort of number of deaths there may have been in care homes:

Covid-19: Hundreds of UK care home deaths not added to official toll

Exclusive: Industry body estimates up to 1,000 people may have died in care homes so far

www.theguardian.com

 

[Doodler]

A family friend has worked on the shop floor at our local Tesco for over 25 years. She says the shelves there have been emptied by shoppers once again for all sorts of foodstuffs, reckons this is because many people are planning little family get-togethers this Easter weekend. Some have been trying to ignore the one shopper per household rule and are being arrogant and obnoxious to the till staff when reminded of it.

 

[Red Cat]

Yeah, the press fixation on the lockdown being relaxed soon and the 'exit strategy' is doing my head in too. I think it's adding to a bit of a public feeling that maybe we're nearing the end of it and things can be relaxed.

,

Totally irresponsible when people need to develop some acceptance of current reality. But that's not what the press does, it's all about generating excited states of mind.

 

[xenon]

There are reasons I'm just taking it one week at a time. I dont want to deviate from that too much, at least not this month.

But we arent supposed to go back to 'normal' after the first wave, so in the broadest sense this will go on for a long time.

One of the reasons I am taking something of a break for the next days is that the press are driving me mad with all the questions about exit strategy. I shall be ignoring that as much as possible, and instead looking at what other countries, which are further ahead than us or managed to lockdown when their epidemics were a fraction of the size of ours, will do about relaxing of measures.

Those questions are infuriating aren't they?
"Are we there yet?.... Are we there yet?.."

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

If you go on newspaper comment sections you can already see government outriders suggesting lockdown will only last two, at the most 3 more weeks and the choice then will be “lift lockdown or face total economic collapse”
I hope I am wrong, but our prospects do not look good either economically or in avoiding runaway outbreak with 5% plus mortality as health facilities overwhelmed. This is where the eugenicists, herd immunity speculators and comparative advantage fantasists have led us.

 

[clicker]

The South Korean stats are imo as trustworthy as we can hope for and they are now showing at least 90 'recovered' covid patients are still 'infected'.
If that pattern continues globally then we're in for the long haul.
The temp hospitals and over 30 temp morgues aren't going to be pulled down anytime soon.
The clamouring, from a minority, for lifting of restrictions are I think borne from panic. Without any data yet to show what is likely to happen they're just whistling in the wind.
Without a vaccine and serological tests (that work) it's a waiting game.
The non essential construction and online shopping isn't helping. How is it right that I could sit in the garden ordering a bloody summer dress, some poor sod is having to go to work to package that up and send it to me. A postman has to deliver it etc....yet still people will be doing just that.

 

[Red Cat]

He's still holding out for some late summer festivals

I heard there's one happening in la la land.

 

[Cerberus]

I do have some sympathy for government - any government anywhere in fact. (I said only some...).

While I understand that it’s irresponsible to speculate on ending lockdown, even to the extent of hinting at two more weeks (via media leaks) it would also be irresponsible to begin communicating plans for indefinite lockdown/s and life changing immeasurably. The latter would trigger panic, fear, mental health issues, redundancies etc..

Atm the tension lies between those that advocate lifting lockdown in a couple of weeks and those that warn of being in it ‘for the long haul’.

I don’t really think anyone in government, the Civil Service, healthcare, education, business, supply chain can adequately comprehend what a year long (for example) lockdown might mean for society. When you add on to that the absence of physical human relationships and contact plus the removal of all of those leisure activities which we hold dear (& that others rely on for work) - sport, live music, theatre, cinema, festivals etc etc - then no one can be blamed for speculating...

 

[editor]

Out for my morning dog walk and just seen a B&Q delivery van with two people in it. I would think that a whole day together in the cab plus carrying heavy deliveries huffing and puffing all over the place would be really high risk.

If there was only one person there would soon be no truck.

 

[Anju]

If there was only one person there would soon be no truck.

Has there been a rise in thefts of delivery vehicles? All the courier vans I've seen only have the driver and same for post office.

I wouldn't fancy having to spend a day in such a confined space with someone who could be ignoring social distancing guidelines.