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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

With some uncertainty still about how airborne the virus is, and the success of some mask-wearing East Asian countries in containing outbreaks, wearing masks seems like a no-brainer - maybe some people aren't wearing them properly, but since we've all had weeks of intensive reminders about hand-washing, it could be time for a crash course in mask-wearing.
 
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There's been a lot of debate about the mask issue in Hong Kong recently - locals generally wear masks while Westerners don't, and a recent surge in cases has been linked to some dumb expats who came back from the UK and other European countries before the borders shut and then went to pubs, weddings, yoga classes etc. instead of self-isolating.
 
Interesting, didn't realize. A nice act to be honest, every year I get hit by some or other evil fucking cold. As I say, I'm tempted to keep up this avoiding people lark permanently. :)
Thing is, Yossarian has a point - because it is the cultural norm there, people have some idea how to wear them. The masks I've seen around London in the past few weeks have been worn far more tidily and efficiently by the East Asians wearing them. They appear to actually know what they are doing.
 
The implementation of a large scale testing programme is really not that difficult, as long as it is planned well in advance, and there are more than sufficient resources. An emergency programme could easily have been arranged.

At the heart of the problem, therefore, is neither a lack of capacity nor capability. The real reason for the failure to mount an extensive programme lies in the document I introduced yesterday setting out the "Pandemic Influenza Strategic Framework".

Close scrutiny of this shows that there was no provision made for mass testing. The testing was to be deployed in the initial stages only to provide early estimates of the likely severity and impact on the UK of the epidemic, and then to provide data in an "attempt to model the course of the pandemic".

When one then looks at the "planning assumptions" it is easy to see why this stance is taken. From the very start, the planners concede defeat, stating that stopping "the spread or introduction of the pandemic virus into the UK is unlikely to be a feasible option".

They then work on the basis that, once the virus is established in the UK, sporadic cases and clusters will be occurring across the country in 1-2 weeks and about 50 percent of the population may be affected in some way or another. Chillingly, they also suggest that up to 50 percent of [NHS] staff may be affected over the period of the pandemic, "either directly by the illness or by caring responsibilities".

What is not spelt out though are the necessary consequences of this stance. For these, one has to go to the guidance site for local planners, to whom is passed the gruesome work of dealing with the casualties.

Under the heading "Management of deaths", we are told that scientific modelling estimates that the UK could experience up to 750,000 additional deaths over the course of a pandemic. These figures, the guidance adds, might be expected to be reduced by the impact of countermeasures, but the effectiveness of such mitigation is not certain.

Thus, we learn that local planners "have been set the target" of preparing to extend capacity on a precautionary but reasonably practicable basis, and aim to cope with a population mortality rate of up to 210,000 to 315,000 additional deaths. As to timescale, these deaths may possibly occur "over as little as a 15 week period and perhaps half of these over three weeks at the height of the outbreak".

I am minded of that epic scene in the film Independence Day, where the President of the United States is brought face-to-face with one of the invading aliens, whence the President asks of it, "what do you want us to do?" The alien replies with brutal finality: "Die!"

That, it seems, was our role in this epidemic. Originally, no serious plans were made to control it and, while some mitigation was anticipated, the main practical response was to plan for the mass disposal of bodies. This was not outbreak management – it was the strategy of defeat.

We even have a carefully-drafted 59-page document setting out "a framework for planners preparing to manage deaths, which is only thirty pages shorter than the entire Pandemic Influenza Response Plan.
 
just that i don't think people are doing it because they cant afford to pay for their petrol. I dont know though obvs.
Oh right. I'd have said it demonstrates a certain entitlement - common in rich areas ime. People aren't really supposed to be driving now but the fact they are and also helping themselves to petrol is very much congruent with the attitudes common in ppl who have money.
 
Oh right. I'd have said it demonstrates a certain entitlement - common in rich areas ime. People aren't really supposed to be driving now but the fact they are and also helping themselves to petrol is very much congruent with the attitudes common in ppl who have money.
That's exactly the same sort of attitude as someone thinking anyone on minimum wage must be a thicko who never finished school and probably has too many children.
 
I posted these videos on th chat thread a couple of days ago.

The first is made by a bloke who studies critical thinking, who has successfully nudged the population of Czechoslovakia to wear facemasks. The second is the video that made it happen.








This article makes it clear the Czechs are having a pretty similar general experience to everyone else (claims and counterclaims, not enough being done soon enough etc). And so far as I can tell, their early hope that the masks would keep numbers low, their numbers are climbing.


I know this is international not U.K. but the mask part of the story is pertinent to this thread.

weltweit elbows
How do the Czech numbers compare to anywhere else?


ETA
Also, I note that’s #hash-tag makes an appearance in that first video.
 
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And when was their first recorded infection? How far along the curve are they?
Afraid I don't have that info, perhaps elbows might have it.

I also don't know how vigorous their testing is, 3,600 registered cases is quite a lot, and deaths do lag cases by a few weeks so their fatality figures could yet rise quite a lot.
 
And when was their first recorded infection? How far along the curve are they?
First death was 22 March. They locked down early (before this death) and are testing widely (more than 50,000 tests in total now), so the overall figure for infections needs to be viewed in that light - they should be further along the curve than us even if their first infection was later if their measures arrested exponential growth.

The number of daily tests was a record 5,313 on Monday, more than double the figure a week earlier, bringing the total number of tests to 48,811.

The government aims to increase the testing capacity to 10,000 per day and boost the tracking of contacts of infected people to improve the targeting of quarantine measures.

Czech Republic's coronavirus infections top 3,000

For comparison, Czechia population is just under 1/6 the size of the UK's, so 10,000 is the equivalent of 65,000 here. The UK govt is currently aiming at 25,000 tests per day by the end of April. So they are testing a lot more, and finding well under 10 percent to be positive. Their numbers are more comparable to those of Germany than those of the UK. They're doing better than us, possibly a lot better.
 
Fair enough, but I haven't sneezed since about early February, genuinely.
If masks are going to be introduced more widely, my point was that people with CV symptoms, (or with general coughs/sneezes that might not be CV) should be the priority.

I was only objecting to the possibility that EVERYONE might have to wear masks.
Admittedly, that was only hinted at in the BBC story, not specified.
you haven't sneezed for 8 weeks AT ALL?
 
First death was 22 March. They locked down early (before this death) and are testing widely (more than 50,000 tests in total now), so the overall figure for infections needs to be viewed in that light - they should be further along the curve than us even if their first infection was later if their measures arrested exponential growth.



Czech Republic's coronavirus infections top 3,000

For comparison, Czechia population is just under 1/6 the size of the UK's, so 10,000 is the equivalent of 65,000 here. The UK govt is currently aiming at 25,000 tests per day by the end of April. So they are testing a lot more, and finding well under 10 percent to be positive. Their numbers are more comparable to those of Germany than those of the UK. They're doing better than us, possibly a lot better.


We won’t know till all the numbers crunching is completed afterwards but I wonder if the widespread use of masks as outlined in those clips will prove to be a material factor in any good outcomes, or if it’s only/primarily the testing. IE I wonder if, in the absence of testing, universal mask wearing (properly done) makes a difference.

I’m not wearing a mask but I often want to when I’m around those who don’t respect the distancing.

And I’ve seen plenty of mask touching, yanking, loosely fitting chin straps, smoking, phoning etc that just makes them worse than useless, so I’m sure masks would only work if there’s a huge increase in understanding about how to wear them.
 
Coronavirus: sponsored by 3M.

I do actually think that masks + public info campaign is worth pursuing though.
 
The sun makes me sneeze. I have to be really careful atm stepping out on a sunny day. Usually twice as well, just for added alarm. :(
Me too, uncontrollably. Stepped out of a hospital I was working at yesterday, into the sun and let out about 5. I was so glad there was no one else around because I could picture people diving for cover or digging foxholes in the tarmac with their teeth, the way things are.
 
Me too, uncontrollably. Stepped out of a hospital I was working at yesterday, into the sun and let out about 5. I was so glad there was no one else around because I could picture people diving for cover or digging foxholes in the tarmac with their teeth, the way things are.
At the height of hayfever season, I can easily let rip ten in a row. What fun that will be.
 
Some learned people on this very thread had suggested widespread testing was dumb.

Such as?

I dont remember such claims, though there probably have been far more nuanced versions expressed from time to time.

For example, I have spoken frequently about the UK orthodox approach which would never do testing on the required scale. I have spoken frequently of my concerns about whether the approach taken by some countries is sustainable, whether their gains will last. None of that means I think testing would be a bad idea, especially given that with our current knowledge, its one of the few things that can unlock more possible options for how we tackle the virus in future.

Its also one of the biggest clues as to what the UK government approach in future is actually going to be - if they dont embrace mass testing etc then it likely means they are still on a modified mitigation approach (ie harder mitigation) rather than a genuine suppression approach.
 
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