Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[elbows]

I thought you said decisions and balancing acts weren’t easy, but apparently they are easy if only everyone would follow your assessment of risk.

If you think that this conference was a stupid mistake, you’re entitled to your view, but don’t act like it’s unreasonable for all those heart surgeons to have arrived at a different view.

Given the road many decided to go down this year, its not hard to see why things like that conference went ahead. The momentum was not on the side of what people like me thought reasonable to do in 2021, and I have to come to terms with that.

What I will consider to be really stupid is if lessons are not learnt from this, when combined with the current Omicron situation and its current unknowns.

So in many ways the extent to which I will be infuriated by some of the posts here today comes down to whether your sentiments only seek to explain and justify what has already happened with that conference, or whether they also form a basis to argue that such behaviours should carry on regardless now that we have some benefit of hindsight in regards Omicron existing.

 

[Wilf]

If you looked at the conference website you’d notice there are lots of practical exercises in the syllabus. I’m keen to have heart surgery from people who have had a practice first

Yes to practical training of course. Practical training in the most effective but also Covid sensible settings possible. That might involve some travel, it might involve lots of things. But the bit that involves sitting in a hall in close proximity with 1000+ people is neither sensible nor safe.

 

[Supine]

But the bit that involves sitting in a hall in close proximity with 1000+ people is neither sensible nor safe.

Show some evidence that the conference caused any issues and then we can discuss.

 

[elbows]

I see from the conference photo collection that the latest innovations in chin masks were demonstrated.

 

[teuchter]

The differences of opinion on this sort of thing are not just down to different ideas about acceptable level of risk, they also come from different ideas of level of benefit. The value of meeting in person is rated very differently by different people, according to their personality and also the nature of their work. It's been quite clear throughout the last couple of years that for some people staying at home and not really seeing anyone is no big deal or even a pleasure ... While for others it has a very major negative impact on their well-being.

 

[elbows]

Its clear that some people have learnt very little from the pandemic. Infuriating. The usual suspects too, with the same brand of bullshit.

 

[Wilf]

Show some evidence that the conference caused any issues and then we can discuss.

That's a really stupid thing to suggest I need do. I don't have results of tests taken by participants, hotel workers and caterers since the event (though, if you want to go down that road, the reason we are discussing this is an Israeli doctor thinks he got Omicron at the event). What do you want me to do, hold off saying warehouse parties/pissed up Euro 2020 parties/boris johnson's Christmas parties and the rest were a bad idea till I have some data? FFS! We know full well the scenarios that are not a good idea. And before you get into 'oh, so you think these doctors are just as bad as pissed up people at a party', no I don't. More likely to be Covid aware, though clearly not social distancing or with 100% mask use.

 

[Supine]

Its clear that some people have learnt very little from the pandemic. Infuriating. The usual suspects too, with the same brand of bullshit.

Me?

 

[elbows]

Me?

You might have learnt plenty, as may have others. And you werent clueless to start with either.

But yes I do get infuriated that there is something very familiar about how we clash over such matters.

I'd rather we all learnt and grew and made each other feel better, but there are some unfortunate aspects of my personality that are at odds with these aims. I suppose I'd feel better if we spent more time talking about what we've learnt and what mistakes we wont repeat.

 

[Yossarian]

Holding a conference is one thing, but choosing to hold it in London of all places seems like a bad move - seems just as likely that the doctor caught omicron on public transport or in his hotel than at the conference itself.

 

[xenon]

In a scenario that was never going to happen anyway. If lockdown had lasted till today. We still have this new variant to worry over. But with a much less exposed populous, fewer antibodies. It remains to be seen of course whether prior infection with Delta offers any protection against omnicrom.

 

[xenon]

Dropping the advice, mandate even, to wear masks in shops et cetera was stupid. But other than that what else would’ve changed the picture. We’d still be here.

 

[teuchter]

Holding a conference is one thing, but choosing to hold it in London of all places seems like a bad move - seems just as likely that the doctor caught omicron on public transport or in his hotel than at the conference itself.

Most of London has had the lowest case rates in the UK for the past month or two.

 

[elbows]

I never said we should stay in lockdown all the way through. There are plenty of other details somewhere in between the old normal and the sensible new normal that was actually appropriate in 2021.

We should not have placed so much reliance on vaccines alone. I've been saying that for nearly a year.

We should not have removed a lot of the basic social distancing measures.

We should not have rushed back to conferences and international travel.

We should not have let so many in the world go unprotected via disgusting vaccine distribution inequality.

The evolution of the virus is a messy picture. But prioritising keeping the number of infections down to a minimum can make quite a big difference to that. Even if it failed to prevent new mutations from appearing at a similar pace, it would have at least given health care systems and staff some opportunity to partially recover, to have a period with less burden on the front lines.

 

[elbows]

Most of London has had the lowest case rates in the UK for the past month or two.

The UK as a whole was a poor choice of destination but quite how much that was the primary mistake is unclear to me given that the gathering of people from around the world, and the associated travel and accommodation bring their own risks.

We might also ponder whether lax rules in the UK made it an ideal choice of destination for organisers of such gatherings. Come to the UK, where you only have to pay lip service to mask wearing and where there are no limits on participant numbers in indoor settings.

 

[platinumsage]

PCR London Valves has run annually in London for many years, because the concentration of hospitals and research institutions make it a world-leading location for cardiovascular research and education.

 

[platinumsage]

Its clear that some people have learnt very little from the pandemic. Infuriating. The usual suspects too, with the same brand of bullshit.

Luckily by venting on here you're not abusing heart surgeons on Twitter.

 

[Supine]

PCR London Valves has run annually in London for many years, because the concentration of hospitals and research institutions make it a world-leading location for cardiovascular research and education.

And a LOT of medical boards will have risked assessed the travel req’s for the participants

 

[elbows]

The sales, marketing and networking impetus behind conferences is not lost on me.

Luckily by venting on here you're not abusing heart surgeons on Twitter.

Fuck off with that pathetic smear you disgusting pandemic piece of shit.

 

[editor]

Anecdotally, I've suddenly had a fair few friends come down with Covid in the last five days or so - something like 9 or 10 people which is probably the most I've known at the same time. Mind you, at least four of them are anti vaxxers.

 

[Wilf]

The sales, marketing and networking impetus behind conferences is not lost on me.

I was about to post the same point. I don't know about this particular conference, but conferences generally are part of the circuits of capital - from trade events specifically about selling through to academic events dominated by publishers stands. I think this links to an earlier discussion on here about bosses needing to perform who they are and their position during Covid. That was certainly the case with regard to academic events I've been involved in, the executive of an annual association and their favourite profs in a self congratulatory echo chamber. Junior academics allowed to play the game and network, but within a paternalistic structure. Other conferences/events are much better, needless to say.

 

[elbows]

I cant help but think the media or their sources sat on the no 10 Christmas party story until this years Christmas loomed. Anyway here is the latest development to the political heat over that:

Covid bereaved families 'sickened' over No 10 Christmas party

A bereaved families group calls for an apology from Boris Johnson over lockdown gathering.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[elbows]

I was about to post the same point. I don't know about this particular conference, but conferences generally are part of the circuits of capital - from trade events specifically about selling through to academic events dominated by publishers stands. I think this links to an earlier discussion on here about bosses needing to perform who they are and their position during Covid. That was certainly the case with regard to academic events I've been involved in, the executive of an annual association and their favourite profs in a self congratulatory echo chamber. Junior academics allowed to play the game and network, but within a paternalistic structure. Other conferences/events are much better, needless to say.

I expect this conference was entirely typical.

https://www.pcronline.com/Courses/PCR-London-Valves/Industry

But of course it isnt possible to fully pick apart commercial interests from the good work that is done in fields of medicine. There is a lot of overlap, a lot of profit, a lot of potential to improve health outcomes, and a lot of potential bickering with the usual people I clash with here and I've had more than enough of that for now.

 

[Wilf]

I expect this conference was entirely typical.

https://www.pcronline.com/Courses/PCR-London-Valves/Industry

But of course it isnt possible to fully pick apart commercial interests from the good work that is done in fields of medicine. There is a lot of overlap, a lot of profit, a lot of potential to improve health outcomes, and a lot of potential bickering with the usual people I clash with here and I've had more than enough of that for now.

Yep. At one level, I want to defend a generic thing called 'medicine' at the moment and another one called 'science', especially in the face of the murderous assault from conspiracists. But this pandemic should also be a perfect time to unearth the theft from the public purse, contracts and deals that increasingly sit at the heart of 'healthcare'.

 

[elbows]

I suppose I'd start by focussing on the need to spend a much greater proportion of GDP on health care, and then ensuring that such extra funding didnt simply get whisked away as profit.

Returning to more general talk about Omicron, I suppose I havent ruled out the possibility that it wont just be 100% bad news. Actions and behavioural changes as a result of Omicron fears can improve the existing Delta situation, and many unknowns about Omicron remain right now.

 

[elbows]

Anecdotally, I've suddenly had a fair few friends come down with Covid in the last five days or so - something like 9 or 10 people which is probably the most I've known at the same time. Mind you, at least four of them are anti vaxxers.

What sort of ages are they? I'll probably graph cases by age group in the London region later.

 

[editor]

What sort of ages are they? I'll probably graph cases by age group in the London region later.

Mainly late 20s/early 30s.

 

[elbows]

Mainly late 20s/early 30s.

Cheers for the info, hope they are feeling better soon.

I havent done cases by age for London region for quite a while so I've no idea what to expect until I dust off the spreadsheet once todays data has come out. London in general has given me some cause for concern recently, albeit starting from a lower base than some other regions.

 

[magneze]

You can't learn hospital on zoom.

Indeed, you also need to have watched BOTH Casualty AND Holby City.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Indeed, you also need to have watched BOTH Casualty AND Holby City.

I'm in awe of people with that level of dedication tbh.