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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

In some ways getting people to do less than the formal restrictions allow has usually been part of their equations, and I'm saying that now because its increasingly obvious at the moment via the governments current rhetoric.

It will soon be a year since Van-Tam told people not to tear the pants out of it. Then they had to resort to a lot of that sort of messaging in the buildup to Christmas, and now they have various reasons to do the same again. Even without the new variant concerns of this moment, they'd probably have resorted to some of this cautious message now, to compensate for some of the riskier aspects of their chosen unlocking timetable.

There are cetainly exceptions to that, especially in the middle of last year when Johnson made premature attempts to get more people back to workplaces, and initially had an unrealistic hopes about when schools would reopen. And of course there was the eat out to help out scheme which was designed to encourage many people back to certain normal settings for meals. Should they attempt that sort of thing again at some point, I will take it as a sign that the data gives them reason to think that the pandemic has really reached a stage where less behavioural changes/reduced contacts changes are required to keep things within the levels they can cope with.

Authorities and especially politicians with Johnsons sort of ideological beliefs would have liked to have been able to rely mostly on that sort of messaging and the resulting behavioural changes in order to manage the pandemic, rather than all the draconian stuff they ended up having to do, but the pandemic virus was too transmissible and deadly for that approach to do the job, they had to go so much further into previously unthinkable territory. But we should still expect them to return to the classic approach as soon as the pandemic numbers game seems likely to allow. Indeed it was pretty clear in both of Johnsons pandemic press conferences this week that the 'leave it to individuals judgement' rhetoric was in full effect, the journey in that direction has begun big time, to replace the formal brakes.

If the new variant causes a load of shit then we'll get to see how far and for how long they try to get this lack of formal brakes phase to carry all the strain, or whether they reach a point of u-turn once again. If the new variant doesnt cause as many problems as feared, then relief and exasperation that this was some kind of 'false alarm' could I suppose cause a behavioural bounce back in the other direction, towards more behavioural normality in a month or so than people currently think seems likely.

If I was in charge and had no love of rushed timescales and no particular desire to stop to using formal brakes as soon as possible, then I would have picked an unlocking timetable that lined up better with the vaccination programmes conclusion of the adult phase at least, and I would have wanted peoples confidence to grow in better sync with the unlocking steps as a result. Variants would still have been a potential complication to this, so I'd have tried to avoid giving dates too far in advance. But I suppose that isnt so easy when journalists and businesses are crying out for 'certainty'. What they actually get when their demands are met is only a feeble form of certainty though, no matter what anyone says or promises real certainty cannot be assured. Especially not when they need confident punters to provide a certain level of footfall for their business to be in profit.
 
Yes there would be an obvious political cost to not doing things on the dates they hoped for, but Johnson did deliberately raise the spectre of that possibly happening with the June relaxation. I expect part of the reason he did this was to increase peoples sense of caution.

Plenty of front pages tomorrow are full of the cautious message, even if they are also being typical shits at the same time eg the Daily Mail one.

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Ah of course. It’s the public’s fault of the Indian variant spreads. Not the governments.
 
Sorry if already asked but I need to make sense of this:

People can now meet indoors in groups of up to six or two households

Are 4 people from 3 different households allowed to meet indoors? Or is it saying there is a maximum of two households can meet regardless of if it’s less than 6.

Can a family of 5 meet with a family of 4 or does the rule of 6 mean they can’t?

Or is it the opposite way round. Up to 6 can net from however many households and however many can meet as long as two households isn’t breached.

Are these rules so ambiguous no one really knows hence they can’t be policed so no one cares?
 
Sorry if already asked but I need to make sense of this:

People can now meet indoors in groups of up to six or two households

Are 4 people from 3 different households allowed to meet indoors? Or is it saying there is a maximum of two households can meet regardless of if it’s less than 6.

Can a family of 5 meet with a family of 4 or does the rule of 6 mean they can’t?

Or is it the opposite way round. Up to 6 can net from however many households and however many can meet as long as two households isn’t breached.

Are these rules so ambiguous no one really knows hence they can’t be policed so no one cares?
Government website lays it out:


Meeting friends and family indoors (rule of 6)

It is safer to meet people outdoors. This is because COVID-19 spreads much more easily indoors. However, you can meet up indoors with friends and family you do not live with, either:
  • in a group of up to 6 from any number of households (children of all ages count towards the limit of 6)
  • in a group of any size from up to two households (each household can include an existing support bubble, if eligible)
If you are meeting friends and family, you can make a personal choice on whether to keep your distance from them, but you should still be cautious. You should read the guidance on meeting friends and family.
 
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This study, involving health care workers, who are clearly at high risk, sounds promising that the AZ vaccine does offer a high level of protection to the Indian variant.

The AstraZeneca Covid vaccine is 97 per cent effective against India strain, according to reports.

New research of nearly 3,300 people in India discovered only two hospitalisations with Covid. All of the people anaylsed were vaccinated with the AstraZeneca jab, and they worked in healthcare.

The Indraprastha Apollo Hospital in Delhi published the study, finding a hospital admission rate of less than 1 per cent. Dr Anupam Sibal, group medical director, said: “Our study demonstrated that 97.38 per cent of those vaccinated were protected from an infection."

 
Sorry if already asked but I need to make sense of this:

People can now meet indoors in groups of up to six or two households

Are 4 people from 3 different households allowed to meet indoors? Or is it saying there is a maximum of two households can meet regardless of if it’s less than 6.

Can a family of 5 meet with a family of 4 or does the rule of 6 mean they can’t?

Or is it the opposite way round. Up to 6 can net from however many households and however many can meet as long as two households isn’t breached.

Are these rules so ambiguous no one really knows hence they can’t be policed so no one cares?

Any number of people can gather indoors if they are from just 2 households.

If there are members of 3 or more households in the gathering then the gathering is limited to 6 people.

The maximum number of households that can gather together indoors is therefore 6 (only one person from each household).
 
Or just to be crazy here. Don't worry too much about the letter of the law and go with what feels safe. Consider things like who has had a job, has everyone had a LFT.
 
This feels like a new departure: there were clearly times during the previous waves when experts were frantically signalling that they thought the relaxations were a bad idea, but they stopped short of actually directly contradicting the Government's advice. So this - an overt plea to not take full advantage of the loosening of restrictions - seems to me to represent a hardened/more desperate effort to flag up the risks.
 
This study, involving health care workers, who are clearly at high risk, sounds promising that the AZ vaccine does offer a high level of protection to the Indian variant.
Hospitalisation rate 0.06%, OK. A study apparently reporting infection based on self-reporting of symptoms, hmm. Let's see the preprint.
 
This feels like a new departure: there were clearly times during the previous waves when experts were frantically signalling that they thought the relaxations were a bad idea, but they stopped short of actually directly contradicting the Government's advice. So this - an overt plea to not take full advantage of the loosening of restrictions - seems to me to represent a hardened/more desperate effort to flag up the risks.
I noticed that. It felt like the scientists were essentially saying "we know the government aren't going to listen to us, so we're talking to you directly".
 
I noticed that. It felt like the scientists were essentially saying "we know the government aren't going to listen to us, so we're talking to you directly".
I got that impression, as well.

will add a link, when I can find it ...

E2A - beeb link

there are some interesting comments in those interviews ...
 
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Hopefully if there is anything positive to take from the rapid spread of the Indian strain is that it should aid the vaccination drive. I think one of the reasons the take-up on the initial roll out was high was because it started at a time when the virus was running rampant and the national lockdown was in place.


I guess as humans we sometimes need things like this to focus the mind. The situation in Oz where they have had a slow rollout and lowish uptake is not surprising when the virus isn't such an every day thing.
 
Ah of course. It’s the public’s fault of the Indian variant spreads. Not the governments.

One consequence of the governments messaging about people doing the right thing is that there have been a bunch of occasions where people here have commented along the lines of the government setting things up to blame the people.

It hasnt actually turned out like that so far - there have been moments where individual ministers have said things which involved a shitty blame game, but its not turned into their main narrative and rather the message they've gone for has been to thank people for their efforts, playing up the levels of compliance and the positive side of that stuff. This is one of the few areas where they've actually done the right thing and listened to what their experts have told them in terms of public communication.

I know there are many good reasons why people think there are no limits to the cheek and gall governments demonstrate on this sort of front. But there are big reasons why there have been limits to how far they push and stretch things on this front, not least because it could blow up in their face and draw anger and attention towards all the mistakes the government have blatantly made during the pandemic.

I dont really expect any different this time.
 
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Dude, you've put so much work into this thread. Your posts are such a valuable resource. But don't you need a break? We can make do with Devi's twitter or something while you relax for a week or two. The virus will still be here afterwards.

Thanks. Whenever I've run out of steam in the past and started going on about taking a nice long break, I've actually recovered more quickly than expected so the break didnt last long. And I type quickly so I dont think my posts actually take as long to make as it may seem. Plus I picked the right times to take a break in the past, eg June & July 2020 I was still posting but by my standards it was still a break and I didnt spend the whole time agonising over signs of the second wave arriving, that came later in August/early September.

The India variant concerns have emerged at an annoying time because this years wave and unlocking timing means that right now should be the equivalent of last June, and even though there are limits to how much good the vaccination programme can do, this should still largely be a positive moment. It is inevitable that I'll be somewhat preoccupied with these variant concerns for some weeks now, but whether or not I post about them here they will still be on my mind, so a total mental break is impossible for me. Thats ok though, I recharge quickly when I distract myself with non-pandemic stuff for a few hours here and there.
 
This reminds me, has anyone any idea what is going in Moray at the moment? I can understand local spikes in urban areas but ,my recollection of Moray being quite rural and sparsely populated, the sort of place I'd expect to be largely unaffected by covid or at least not to say the degree as a big town or City.
 
This reminds me, has anyone any idea what is going in Moray at the moment? I can understand local spikes in urban areas but ,my recollection of Moray being quite rural and sparsely populated, the sort of place I'd expect to be largely unaffected by covid or at least not to say the degree as a big town or City.

I'm not sure. I did find this:

The localised Moray outbreak has been attributed partly to low levels of Covid-19 in Moray throughout the past year – leading to low immunity, and people not following rules because of a perception that the virus is no longer a significant risk.

From Where is Moray, why is it pronounced Murray, how bad is the covid outbreak, will Nicola Sturgeon lift restrictions?

But I suppose I could also make a broader point about how areas that first show up as hotspots at times where many locations are showing relatively low virus prevalence rates, may just be a sign of what fate may await very many other locations in future. eg quirks of timing and combinations of bad luck and chance make some places stick out earlier than others, but there may not be any particularly unique features to explain why.
 
I got that impression, as well.

will add a link, when I can find it ...

E2A - beeb link

there are some interesting comments in those interviews ...

The problem with this stuff I think is the same as any attempt to deal with population level issues with appeals to individual behaviours. Your individual risk from going to the pub or to meet family is really quite low, your individual impact on the overall levels of Covid where others aren't quite strictly restrained (and despite the endless moaning the vast majority of people have been complying and have been heavily restricted) is very low, and the personal cost of sticking to something along the lines of what has been the rules is very high. It's quite rational for most people to not do it tbh.

It's similar to trying to tackle climate change by asking people not to fly or not to eat meat. It can't hurt to promote it and it might help a little bit but it's not going to make a fundamental difference IMO.
 
Makes sense to delay this:

A planned review of social distancing measures due to take place this month could be delayed due to the spread of the Indian Covid variant, Downing Street says.

The PM's official spokesman says: "We want to do it as soon as possible but... we need time to assess the latest data on this variant first identified in India so I'm not going to give a set time for doing that.

"We want to do everything possible to give people enough time to prepare."

The review of the measures - and the possible use of coronavirus status certification - had been expected by the end of May.

Thats from the 13:17 entry of the BBC live updates page
edit - ah they turned this into its own article Covid-19: Variant fears could delay England's social distancing review
 
Hancock has been speaking in parliament and I will cover some bits properly later but in response to a question from Labour he confirmed that vaccinating everyone aged over 18 in hotspots areas is not their current approach.
 
This reminds me, has anyone any idea what is going in Moray at the moment? I can understand local spikes in urban areas but ,my recollection of Moray being quite rural and sparsely populated, the sort of place I'd expect to be largely unaffected by covid or at least not to say the degree as a big town or City.
I heard it's related to a high school/a couple of food processing places but no idea if that's true or not.
 
Some figures from Hancocks statement, via the Guardian:

Hancock is now talking about the Indian variant, B.1.617.2.

He says there have now been 2,323 cases of this.

He says 483 of these cases were in Bolton and in Blackburn with Darwen, where it is the dominant strain.

27m ago 16:34

Hancock says there are now 86 council areas with five or more cases of the Indian variant.

After Bolton and Blackburn, the next biggest area of local concern is Bedford, he says. He says surge testing is being deployed there.

He says the early evidence suggests the Indian variant is more transmissible than the Kent variant. But he says we do not yet know by how much.

And he says laboratory data from Oxford, as well as initial observational data from India, suggests the vaccines are effective against the Indian variant.

19m ago 16:41

In regards that final point, the Labour bloke did point out that there was some evidence from India that the variant may affect the ability of the vaccine to prevent vaccinated people transmitting the virus.
 
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