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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

Just remember the only reason the government is now having to make this choice is because of their absolute incompetence that got us to this point. If the vaccines work and get us out of this mess it is entirely in spite of, not due to, this government. They should be hanging form lampposts.

My misgivings about this vaccine rollout stage of the pandemic in the UK began largely as a result of the giddy rush happening against a backdrop of grotesque levels of viral prevalence.

I could be more relaxed about things like the 2nd dose schedule and other decisions being made if we were doing this stuff during a lull, after the virus had been pushed down to relatively low levels within the population before engaging in vaccination.

This does not mean I would have delayed vaccine rollout until after the current wave was dealt with. But the situation we are doing it under has raised certain stakes, and escape mutants are on my mind.
 
Pointless for me. I've read and discussed lots about this decision with a fair few people in health, and I've got a position that I'm unlikely to change unless new info comes up, and I've haven't seen that here so far.

But mostly I just can't be arsed on a Saturday when I planned to spend a day bottling cider and chopping wood tbh.

Some lazy smears against people with a different stance to yours was on your Saturday agenda though, you could be arsed with that.
 
Some lazy smears against people with a different stance to yours was on your Saturday agenda though, you could be arsed with that.

Against such well thought through gems as people not being anarchists for 'agreeing with the government' or it being as simple as 'against the evidence' I allowed myself a few smears back.
 
Judge each decision on its own merit. Study the detail. Try not to throw away the nuances. Be prepared not to reach a firm conclusion either way if in doubt.

SAGE, NERVTAG etc made mistakes at the start of the pandemic that means they must share blame in my mind for first lockdown timing catastrophe. Does that mean I shouldnt bother looking at all the detail they have discussed since? Or that I cannot side with or against them when it comes to a particular issue? Of course not.

Good science doesnt have to rely on pathetic appeals to believe in the wisdom of authorities. In much the same way that your tedious bleating at times about 'all four UK nations are in agreement' was in no way evidence that the government were doing the right thing at the right time.

I haven't 'bleated on' about all 4 nations being in agreement, I've pointed it out on a couple of times, because it is rare, generally speaking the 4 nations have travelled in different directions, at different speeds, which is why when they do actually agree, I think it is both noteworthy and brings some creditability to a policy that the fuckwits in charge at Westminster have presented us with.

Yes, there's clearly concerns over the time delay with the second dose of the Biontech Pfizer vaccine, not so with the Oxford/AZ one, but the JCVI has made a decision based on the unique mess the UK is in, thanks to the endless-up fuck-ups from Westminster. It's not ideal, but there're perfect logical reasons behind the thinking. I've discussed this with my SiL, who in turn has discussed with her colleagues, and they are of the view that whilst it's a bit of a gamble, the odds are well in favour of it being the right thing to do under the circumstances.

And, seems as I've been accused of 'bleating', I may as well point out that this is one of those rare occasions where the chief medical officers of all 4 nations have agreed. :p
 
The reason I refer to your four nations in agreement tactic is that I have always seen it as nothing more than a dullard appeal to believe in the wisdom of authorities not based on the merits of their stance, but on the notion of consensus between authorities. Authorities which have demonstrated their limitations many times in this pandemic already. Authorities which often have complex relationships with each other and where publicly giving the impression of being on the same page is part of the landscape that doesnt necessarily reflect the real situation behind the scenes at all.

If the dose timing stuff its a gamble then its worth discussing without some trying to make it sound like a no-brainer that is unworthy of discussion and worthy of cheap smears.

Anyway here is my transcription of the bit from the 22nd January press conference that I mentioned earlier.

Tim Ross, Bloomberg:

Question to you, Patrick Vallance and Chris Whitty. SAGE minutes from a meeting on January 7th say that theres an unquantifiable but likely small probability of the delayed second dose generating a vaccine-resistant mutation. In layman's terms, does that mean that the decision to delay the second dose actually risks making the virus itself more dangerous, and if so what are you doing about that?

Vallance:

The most risky thing in terms of new mutations is to have very high prevalence. The more the virus is replicating and transmitting between people, the likely, the more the chance that it will get a mutation and alter. And thats whats happening around the world and thats why were seeing the same mutations pop up everywhere. So these mutations have not come about because of vaccine pressure or anything else, they seem to be mutations that the virus accumulates naturally during replication as it wants to get more efficient at transmitting. And so I think thats the biggest risk. Theres always some risk if you start to have partial immunity but theres also a benefit which is that partial immunity can also stop the infection quicker, and so I think that was a statement from the immunologists and an appropriately cautious one but I dont think its the biggest risk.

Whitty:

All of medicine is about balance of risk. And it is important we consider the risks on both sides and we dont try and, you know, just only look at the positive sides in a course of action, we look at both sides, thats what SAGE was doing, thats what we try to do in all the decisions we've taken. Our overall view was the balance of risk was firmly in favour, at this stage of the epidemic in the UK, of having many more people vaccinated, but that does mean the delay. But I think most people would agree that the risk that was identified, that particular risk, was a relatively much smaller risk than the risk of not having people vaccinated, which essentially was the alternative.
 



But it's not like it's just the government on one side and the entire medical scientific establishment on the other. There's a balance that needs a political decision. Partial protection for as many as possible or greater protection for fewer. The pressure on the NHS, makes this a time critical issue hence the gamble of partial protection.
 
Against such well thought through gems as people not being anarchists for 'agreeing with the government' or it being as simple as 'against the evidence' I allowed myself a few smears back.

It was this one that got me going, probably because I'm not a fan of the insinuation that so many would be basing their stance on what position was opposite to that taken by this government.

I bet half the people now arguing it's wrong would be arguing the other way and we needed to protect more people with longer gaps if the government had stuck rigidly to the shorter gap between doses tbh.

There was a phase during the first wave where I kept finding myself saying the same sorts of things that Whitty, Hancock etc then came out with, and it was a weird feeling. But since I'm interested in the reality, I couldnt let it put me off just for the sake of not being on the same page as tories etc. Not that this was much of a burden in my case due to the many occasions where I was very much not in agreement with them since the earliest days of sleepwalking into disaster.

Anyway I would like to apologise to anyone I have been rude to recently. I am finding this wave very difficult, because of how much more avoidable at least the bulk of it should have been, and how long this fact has been obvious for in contrast to how low on the news agenda this avoidable disgusting failure aspect is right now. And I'm finding this vaccination phase very difficult too, because of the way it has coincided with the second wave and stupidly high levels of viral prevalence. And because of the way the government use it to draw focus away from other things that should be done. And because some of the decisions about dose timing worry me greatly. And because I am concerned that so much hope and faith has been placed in the vaccination approach as a silver bullet, and what that will do to peoples state of mind if it goes wrong. And I'm annoyed with myself that althought I have mentioned some of these things a number of times, I dont seem to have been capable of discussing it in the way I'd like.

I am tortured by the possibility that the ability of various vaccines to keep the eldest and most vulnerable people safe from this virus will turn out to be quite a long way away from what people are expecting and hoping for. I've said before that I really wanted to start being wrong more in this pandemic, and this area is probably the largest example of this to date. I'm really hoping to see great results eventually, but that alone is not enough to quieten my unease that we may be setting ourselves up for a fall.
 
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And it bother me the way some of what I've just said has parallels with some obvious film plot twists. Ones where the audience would have little trouble seeing the stupid blunders of authority and humanity coming a mile off, and indeed would be relied upon to see them coming in order for the plot device to work as intended and take people along for the ride as entertainment. But this pandemic isnt entertainment, and so these potential parallels make me feel like banging my head against a brick wall.
 
Took my mum (she's 76) to be vaccinated today pretty painless and efficient took 20 mins. Have to say that I feel relived she has it now even if it is only the 1st dose. I rang her last night and she said she was going to go by bus (2 each way) to get it :facepalm: and I told her in no uncertain terms ! was going to drive her there. Anyway done , small but consistent queue of 5/6 peeps at the center.
 
There's a balance that needs a political decision. Partial protection for as many as possible or greater protection for fewer. The pressure on the NHS, makes this a time critical issue hence the gamble of partial protection.

Not a call that can be made without knowing how much 'partial protection' we're getting from all these single doses, or how long it lasts. It is entirely possible that all the protection provided by a first dose is gone within 12 weeks, so that the second dose is effectively just another first dose and we end up in a loop of throwing good vaccines after bad. Too many risks have been taken in handling this pandemic already. None have paid off. This is not the time to take more risks.
 
Not a call that can be made without knowing how much 'partial protection' we're getting from all these single doses, or how long it lasts. It is entirely possible that all the protection provided by a first dose is gone within 12 weeks, so that the second dose is effectively just another first dose and we end up in a loop of throwing good vaccines after bad. Too many risks have been taken in handling this pandemic already. None have paid off. This is not the time to take more risks.

Well I'm not exactly comfortable about this but presumably there is some scientific basis to this. I forget the percentage as different numbers seem to be being thrown around. I think those who'd had second jab appointments already arranged, should have received them, rather than being messed about though. I do know one guy who's had both shots now. He's 82 and had the first a week or so before Christmas.
 
Not a call that can be made without knowing how much 'partial protection' we're getting from all these single doses, or how long it lasts. It is entirely possible that all the protection provided by a first dose is gone within 12 weeks, so that the second dose is effectively just another first dose and we end up in a loop of throwing good vaccines after bad. Too many risks have been taken in handling this pandemic already. None have paid off. This is not the time to take more risks.
I'm not the first to mention this here, but I think a significant part of why the government have been inclined to take this risk is that the situation is potentially so bad that the NHS really is in danger of being completely overwhelmed, and so there is arguably a need to use the vaccine not as a long term measure, ie following the original plan of doing the two jabs in more or less quick succession, but as a short term one, giving as many people as possible one jab simply to (hopefully) reduce the numbers needing treatment over the next few winter months, even at the risk that the longer term effects are lost and we effectively have to start all over again.

But of course the reason the current situation is so bad is because the government have made all the wrong decisions for all the wrong reasons over the past year...
 
Against such well thought through gems as people not being anarchists for 'agreeing with the government' or it being as simple as 'against the evidence' I allowed myself a few smears back.

my comment came after yours, which elbows has called a "lazy smear", so don't use it as an excuse.
 
Just remember the only reason the government is now having to make this choice is because of their absolute incompetence that got us to this point. If the vaccines work and get us out of this mess it is entirely in spite of, not due to, this government. They should be hanging form lampposts.
I'm not sure modern lampposts would be up to it

Looking on the bright side: WHO will get new info on a delayed vaccination schedule in about 3 months time
 
I wonder, given the aim of protecting the NHS by protecting the most vulnerable, whether there was a case for giving those groups the vaccine with the 3/4 week gap? Get those groups done with the highest level of protection and then if you need to start going for the longer gap between doses, start doing that for say the 60 year olds and younger? Obviously, I don't know whether that is better, but it would be interesting to see the maths on which strategy is modelled to save more lives.

Suppose what I'm getting at is the government seem to have said we'll do the longer gap vaccinations and then applied that for all groups in the originally announced age groups from 85% down to 18. Given the virus is less deadly for the middle aged and young, there might have been a case in letting those groups wait till the most vulnerable got the optimum doses.

Edit: I'm a wee bit pissed but trying to say there's an inflexibility in the government's strategy. There's an obvious balance going on between mass coverage and optimum dosage periods. They may be right and who the fuck am I to say, but I'm just getting a sense that what we've got is a result of previous failures. If the NHS wasn't so close to being overwhelmed we'd almost certainly be on the 3-4 week gap.
 
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This is just appalling. The same oppressive pressure to return to work that the sweatshops of Bradford employ.


Friends locally ;) have told me a fair bit about this.
The majority of the serious outbreaks were at their call centre as I understand it :(

ETA : PCS take on it -- Serwotka is pretty pissed off about it :(
 
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