Compulsory Work for Benefit Claimants in Denmark

[SpookyFrank]

Happy to rephrase.

Should able-bodied immigrants not speaking the native language and who do not to work (or take proscribed work duties) for a defined period forfeit benefits?

Should anyone ever be left without some basic means of keeping themselves sheltered and fed for any reason ever?

No.

Now fuck off.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Honestly when you see people making millions by spending their days actively making society worse I don't know how it's possible to be upset about people doing fuck all.

Although tbh I suspect there at most three people in all of Denmark who refuse to either learn a lick of Danish or make any sort of contribution to Danish society.

 

[paul mckenna]

Honestly when you see people making millions by spending their days actively making society worse I don't know how it's possible to be upset about people doing fuck all.

Although tbh I suspect there at most three people in all of Denmark who refuse to either learn a lick of Danish or make any sort of contribution to Danish society.

Should the 3 able-bodied immigrants not speaking the native language and who do not to work (or take prescribed work duties) for a defined period forfeit benefits?

 

[Edie]

I have no numbers. I have no societal cost. I have but a question:

Should able-bodied immigrants not speaking the native language and who do not to work (or take prescribed work duties) for a defined period forfeit benefits?

God what an absolute tool you are.

 

[A380]

Should the 3 able-bodied immigrants not speaking the native language and who do not to work (or take prescribed work duties) for a defined period forfeit benefits?

No

 

[Edie]

I’d be embarrassed to be you. I really would. The thought that you are actually a grown adult man typing that level of inane shit into a keyboard is incredible. My 16 year old would side eye you as an idiot.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Should the 3 able-bodied immigrants not speaking the native language and who do not to work (or take prescribed work duties) for a defined period forfeit benefits?

No but you should forfeit the right to not fuck off.

 

[paul mckenna]

It's the Paxman-esque dynamic that people exhibit when posed with questions like this that get me.

I know the percentage of people affected by this particular question is relatively small and tbh i don't particularly feel that strongly about it

Why don't people just say "it's a contentious one, i happen to feel this way because of X" etc etc

But we get answers like

"There was a debate apparently about whether to adopt German as the official language in the States. Apparently it was never likely to pass but it was a serious consideration not a light hearted approach. Their army was based on the Prussian rather than the English model and lots of their cultural stuff is drawn from Germany rather than here."

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It's the Paxman-esque dynamic that people exhibit when posed with questions like this that get me.

I know the percentage of people affected by this particular question is relatively small and tbh i don't particularly feel that strongly about it

Why don't people just say "it's a contentious one, i happen to feel this way because of X" etc etc

But we get answers like

Fair point. Why should people approach this question in the way they want? They should answer only in ways that satisfy you.

 

[A380]

It's the Paxman-esque dynamic that people exhibit when posed with questions like this that get me.

I know the percentage of people affected by this particular question is relatively small and tbh i don't particularly feel that strongly about it

Why don't people just say "it's a contentious one, i happen to feel this way because of X" etc etc

But we get answers like

Twice I have given simple unambiguous one word answers to what you purported to be your primary question. Here's another simple, if slightly longer answer to your question:

Why don't people just say "it's a contentious one, i happen to feel this way because of X" etc etc

Because once I had answered your question clearly, concisely and unambiguously with single word answers, because of the bad faith in which you continued post it is now my opinion you are a trolling right wing wanker who has an emptiness in your soul which you pathetically try to fill with hate for those you believe to be weaker than yourself and you appear to lack the intellect and/or charisma to make this behaviour amusing.

 

[Dogsauce]

How about big tellys Paul, a Mate has a friend who’s uncle’s window cleaner’s ex wife knew a bloke who’s sisters worked for the Council in Denmark a d she said that all immigrants who don’t work get a 72 inch television off the council. What is your opinion on that?

The Big Telly trope has been superseded by the ‘latest smartphone’ trope these days, do keep up!

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Are you fluent Boris Sprinkler ? I’ve always been interested in how much actual native language one needs in the very anglo-fluent scandi/benelux countries when just going about life.

I generally always feel really bad defaulting to English outside of obvious places like tourism/hotels and feel it’s kind of rude just rocking up and speaking English in a bar or whatever, but also embarrassed to ask if they understand English because in 90% of cases it’s like duh of course and it also seems sort of patronising to even ask (very British problems.)

Hypothetically how practical is it to just go about life speaking English all the time anyway? I’d assume there must be a point where you just have to engage - at least for reading and listening for daily life stuff. Surely there are official/civil things that are just only in the local language? Eg. Navigating phone systems, government forms, sorting out a bank account, etc.

Not at all. I still miss alot of words, because I'm playing translation catchup in my head. And although my school reports confirmed me as a relatively bright child, there is somthing about the construct of language that just fries my brain. I actually warn people, "my Danish is shit, I understand but I may respond in English" - "mit Dansk er lort. Jeg forstår, mens jeg skal svar i Engelsk. er det ok?", and generally this is ok. And where it isn't, we get by. Speaking slower, using synonyms. Also, onomatopoeia occurs frequently in Danish. Dont know the word for something, know the noise it makes? It will do.
Also, it's ok to be quiet
Pronounciation is difficult as us Londoners dont use those parts of our moufs know what i mean. Translation tools make you lazy. Why spend an extra 10 minutes reading a news story slowly when you can just google translate that mofo.I do know people who have been here for longer than myself who dont speak any Danish whatsoever, children in International schools., other "expats " as friends. Personally these people grate on me a little more, but thats a class thing.

I did do lessons for a while, but they needed more time as I progressed. Think I got to level 4 before tapping out. I had a young family and a fulltime job. I didnt see the value in it at the time. I had to put my education time towards work skills.
Often Danes would point out to me that Princess Mary (arrived the same time as me from Tasmania where she was looted from - old habits die hard), could now speak fluent Danish. I pointed out I had a real job.
If they had locked me up in a castle for breeding Im pretty sure I would have found the time too.

 

[maomao]

It's the Paxman-esque dynamic that people exhibit when posed with questions like this that get me.

I know the percentage of people affected by this particular question is relatively small and tbh i don't particularly feel that strongly about it

Why don't people just say "it's a contentious one, i happen to feel this way because of X" etc etc

But we get answers like

This is one of the most disingenuous threads I've ever seen. If you wanted yes/no answers then start a poll. You've started a discussion, taken a position that you're unable to articulate beyond 'sounds fair' and now you're berating people for interacting with you.

Anyway, to answer the question, no it's not reasonable and the purpose behind it is to stir up racist feeling and get people angry at a problem that barely exists. In Britain at least, the sentiment against foreigners who can't speak English (or just speak it badly) is normally directed at older members of immigrant communities who aren't on benefits but are providing childcare and community support for a low paid immigrant work force.

If the question is even meaningful to you then you're probably a racist and definitely a dimwit. One of the things that is going to have to change if we're going to avoid catastrophic climate change is the definition of useful work. Millions of people running around like headless chickens doing pointless jobs that produce nothing useful but drive more consumption. Everyone in the country should receive a basic income and the definition of useful work should be expanded to include unpaid roles in the community as well as academic and artistic pursuits.

 

[existentialist]

It's the Paxman-esque dynamic that people exhibit when posed with questions like this that get me.

I know the percentage of people affected by this particular question is relatively small and tbh i don't particularly feel that strongly about it

Why don't people just say "it's a contentious one, i happen to feel this way because of X" etc etc

But we get answers like

Because unlike you, most of us realise that life isn't straightforward. You, OTOH, come across like a pound shop Geoff Norcott.

 

[paul mckenna]

This is one of the most disingenuous threads I've ever seen. If you wanted yes/no answers then start a poll. You've started a discussion, taken a position that you're unable to articulate beyond 'sounds fair' and now you're berating people for interacting with you.

Anyway, to answer the question, no it's not reasonable and the purpose behind it is to stir up racist feeling and get people angry at a problem that barely exists. In Britain at least, the sentiment against foreigners who can't speak English (or just speak it badly) is normally directed at older members of immigrant communities who aren't on benefits but are providing childcare and community support for a low paid immigrant work force.

If the question is even meaningful to you then you're probably a racist and definitely a dimwit. One of the things that is going to have to change if we're going to avoid catastrophic climate change is the definition of useful work. Millions of people running around like headless chickens doing pointless jobs that produce nothing useful but drive more consumption. Everyone in the country should receive a basic income and the definition of useful work should be expanded to include unpaid roles in the community as well as academic and artistic pursuits.

It's not dangerous to ask the question of where the limits to benefits should lie. It's logical that there should be a minimum expectation of immigrants. I myself am one and concepts such as social cohesiveness are next to impossible without language skills. For people to maintain that it isn't necessary are being ignorant

For instance, all buildings here in Netherlands are required to have a VVE homeowners association. This gives all members a day in matters relating to their building. It doubles as a forcing function to building relationships with your neighbours. Some of these people have lived here 50 years and are elderly. They want to feel comfortable when left alone with neighbours in lifts/stairwells and being able to converse is entirely appropriate

 

[paul mckenna]

This is one of the most disingenuous threads I've ever seen. If you wanted yes/no answers then start a poll. You've started a discussion, taken a position that you're unable to articulate beyond 'sounds fair' and now you're berating people for interacting with you.

Anyway, to answer the question, no it's not reasonable and the purpose behind it is to stir up racist feeling and get people angry at a problem that barely exists. In Britain at least, the sentiment against foreigners who can't speak English (or just speak it badly) is normally directed at older members of immigrant communities who aren't on benefits but are providing childcare and community support for a low paid immigrant work force.

If the question is even meaningful to you then you're probably a racist and definitely a dimwit. One of the things that is going to have to change if we're going to avoid catastrophic climate change is the definition of useful work. Millions of people running around like headless chickens doing pointless jobs that produce nothing useful but drive more consumption. Everyone in the country should receive a basic income and the definition of useful work should be expanded to include unpaid roles in the community as well as academic and artistic pursuits.

Artistic pursuits. Climate change. Wtf

 

[maomao]

Artistic pursuits. Climate change. Wtf

Yes. People should be able to claim a modest income from the state for being an artist or musician and the forms to apply for this should be available in all languages spoken in the community.

It's not dangerous to ask the question of where the limits to benefits should lie.

I didn't say you were dangerous, I said you were a disingenuous racist dimwit.

 

[andysays]

I didn't say you were dangerous, I said you were a disingenuous racist dimwit.

I haven't actually said that, but for the avoidance of doubt, that's pretty much my opinion too.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Every single person or family in a wealthy country should get Social Security. Whatever their situation. The clue is in the name. To my mind, it shouldn't be in the demeaning form of food stamps or the like. All this talk of 'forfeiting benefits' drives people into debt, deprivation, hopelessness and so on. As one example, I can't think of a single good reason for leaving a struggling one-parent family with nothing.

Unemployment benefit is National Insurance. Again the clue is in in the name. You work you pay in; You lose your job they pay out. Perhaps just as your house insurance has the reasonable expectation that you will lock your doors, National Insurance should expect you to get yourself back to work. If you simply can't, after a given time you may have to switch to Social Security (see above).

Maybe that's an arbitrary distinction that continues to label the less employable as less deserving. I am open to persuasion and happy to be put right.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I think Mr McKenna suffers from xenolingohassen.

 

[existentialist]

Every single person or family in a wealthy country should get Social Security. Whatever their situation. The clue is in the name. To my mind, it shouldn't be in the demeaning form of food stamps or the like. All this talk of 'forfeiting benefits' drives people into debt, deprivation, hopelessness and so on. As one example, I can't think of a single good reason for leaving a struggling one-parent family with nothing.

Unemployment benefit is National Insurance. Again the clue is in in the name. You work you pay in; You lose your job they pay out. Perhaps just as your house insurance has the reasonable expectation that you will lock your doors, National Insurance should expect you to get yourself back to work. If you simply can't, after a given time you may have to switch to Social Security (see above).

Maybe that's an arbitrary distinction that continues to label the less employable as less deserving. I am open to persuasion and happy to be put right.

I think the crux of this whole thing - and maybe this thread - is the determination of many governments to divide those in need of support into "deserving" and "undeserving". Huge amounts of effort seem to go into driving that particular wedge home, and I can't help but suspect that the effort is out of all proportion to the benefits, beyond giving right-wing types a figleaf to excuse their evident desire to make life as miserable as possible for anyone who finds themselves dependent on the state.

 

[A380]

The Big Telly trope has been superseded by the ‘latest smartphone’ trope these days, do keep up!

Soz, yeah I heard off a bloke who's mate works in the Danish Ministry for Bacon that very immigrant to Denmark gets handed an iPhone 13 Max as they walk off the aeroplane. They only get the big telly the next day.

 

[existentialist]

Soz, yeah I heard off. bloke who's mate works in the Danish Ministry for Bacon that very immigrant to Denmark gets handed an iPhone 13 Max as they walk off the aeroplane. They only get the big telly the next day.

I hope they make sure that the iPhone works properly with the big telly - it'd be ridiculous to give them incompatible consumer hardware objects of desire.

 

[A380]

I think Mr McKenna suffers from xenolingohassen.

But he can get some cream for that.

 

[A380]

...
If they had locked me up in a [Danish} castle for breeding Im pretty sure I would have found the time too.

I think I saw that film once...

 

[JuanTwoThree]

I think the crux of this whole thing - and maybe this thread - is the determination of many governments to divide those in need of support into "deserving" and "undeserving". Huge amounts of effort seem to go into driving that particular wedge home, and I can't help but suspect that the effort is out of all proportion to the benefits, beyond giving right-wing types a figleaf to excuse their evident desire to make life as miserable as possible for anyone who finds themselves dependent on the state.

Yup. That UB vs SS thing is always there, with UB being more acceptable (ie It could be you). If it is seen like that then it's sad but true. It's a kind of snobbery but it's not criminally cruel for no good reason, which all these forfeits and delays and other indignities are.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Also bare in mind the benefits system here in DK is very different to that of the UK.

Many people have unemployment insurance a small monthly payment is made meaning that should you find yourself unemployed you will receive about £2000 per month for 2 years (as long as you apply for jobs in their system) if you have been paying this insurance for more than a year, you can actually take additonal insurance out on top guaranteeing you your salary for 2 years in the event of unemployment.
For example, you can start paying unemployment insurance whilst completing your degree, knowing full well that there are no vacancies for Klingon Interpreters presently and then receive £2000 a month whilst waiting for jobs to come on their system for Klingon interpreters. For 2 years. Then your are moved onto a lower tier, which is what they are referring to in the article what had previously been referred to as "aktivering". Most of the focus here has been on those graduates who are misusing the system. I wonder why the BBC has chosen to focus on immigrants?

 

[A380]

My impression from others is that it’s easy to get buy - in Copenhagen at least - without knowing Danish if you know English. My dad and two close mates both worked in Denmark for a very large Danish company for several months, living over there, and never needed to learn Danish for their job.

My mum when she lived out there volunteered via the St Albans English church (by the little mermaid) to teach refugee children English (presumably they were taught Danish too). She must have set up a Danish bank account too as that’s how I got my Pondus the Penguin money box. Again I doubt she spoke much Danish, certainly not enough to ask for a money box (only given to young savers) for her adult child!

Any chance of a picture of Pondus the Penguin ? she/he sounds great.

 

[A380]

…I wonder why the BBC has chosen to focus on immigrants?

I know it’s a complete mystery isn’t it?

 

[Elpenor]

Any chance of a picture of Pondus the Penguin ? she/he sounds great.

It’s a charming 70s kids book which I somehow had as a kid, bought for me in a charity shop by an eccentric neighbour. I plan to pass it on to my Nieces in due course. The money boxes are issued by one of the Danish banks, believe they also own one of the NI banks. There’s also a statue of Pondus in Copenhagen zoo. Thread derail over.