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Combating hopelessness

friendofdorothy said:
Thanks for that. Did you ever see Oranges are not the only fruit? - similar evangelicalical themes - only involving lesbians and set in Accrington. They didn't call it conversion therapy at the time, they called it exorcism, but it was the same idea. It was a tv series in 1985 from an autobiographical novel by Janette Winterson. Grim, but funny. The main character finds escape by being good at school and going to University.
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Meant to respond to this earlier.
Yes I watched Oranges are niot the Only Fruit - when it came out and subsequently on repeat.
I feel that the difference between Oranges and the Boy Erased film was the sheer lack of humour in Boy Erased.

Boy was caught up in an American evangelical cult affecting millions of people.
Also Boy was not adopted - so in a way the parental betrayal was greater I felt. Having befriended a fellow inmate in the re-education centre, they jointly resist the re-programming and the Boy eventually persuades his moither that he has the right to be gay - which splits up his parents marriage. A whole bundle of laughs - not.

I think Oranges are not the only Fruit is partly autobiographical - but it is artfully constructed almost like Dickens if you ask me.
The Christian family household in Accrington are given to brass band sorties in town on market days - parodying the Salvation Army.
From what I remember these church people are portrayed as malevolent or oppressive in a bumbling way.
Actually the scene I remember particulary is when the hero of the story - having broken free - goes back to see the family who adopted her, but were incapable of loving her and bringing her up. What does she find as progress - the adopted mother has started a Christian CB network and is sat there calling up holy contacts on the CB.
(this dates it doesn't it?)

To me Oranges are not the only Fruit is much warmer emotionally - because it is a fable, or almost a pantomime show leaving you feeling warm inside.
Boy Erased made me glad it wasn't me going through that experience - but if that was an up-beat ending I'd better get myself onto Prozac!
 
Puddy_Tat said:
ratracepolyp.jpg
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life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness
 
CH1 said:
Meant to respond to this earlier.
Yes I watched Oranges are niot the Only Fruit - when it came out and subsequently on repeat.
I feel that the difference between Oranges and the Boy Erased film was the sheer lack of humour in Boy Erased.

Boy was caught up in an American evangelical cult affecting millions of people.
Also Boy was not adopted - so in a way the parental betrayal was greater I felt. Having befriended a fellow inmate in the re-education centre, they jointly resist the re-programming and the Boy eventually persuades his moither that he has the right to be gay - which splits up his parents marriage. A whole bundle of laughs - not.

I think Oranges are not the only Fruit is partly autobiographical - but it is artfully constructed almost like Dickens if you ask me.
The Christian family household in Accrington are given to brass band sorties in town on market days - parodying the Salvation Army.
From what I remember these church people are portrayed as malevolent or oppressive in a bumbling way.
Actually the scene I remember particulary is when the hero of the story - having broken free - goes back to see the family who adopted her, but were incapable of loving her and bringing her up. What does she find as progress - the adopted mother has started a Christian CB network and is sat there calling up holy contacts on the CB.
(this dates it doesn't it?)

To me Oranges are not the only Fruit is much warmer emotionally - because it is a fable, or almost a pantomime show leaving you feeling warm inside.
Boy Erased made me glad it wasn't me going through that experience - but if that was an up-beat ending I'd better get myself onto Prozac!
Click to expand...
A good friend of mine is from Accy, and Janette Winterson was her first girlfriend. When Oranges a n t o f was on the TV we had to avoid mentioning it. Apparently the story is fairly true to life. JW was a good author. I suppose she could turn things around because she escaped, the church, the family and the town. In 1980s it was a grim hopeless place.

I used to hang out with a group of friends from Accy -apparently one of them, who was also from a religious family, became an international gay porn star. Escape from that town seems to allow interesting transformations.
 
yield said:
When hope is a hindrance
For Hannah Arendt, hope is a dangerous barrier to courageous action. In dark times, the miracle that saves the world is to act
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However, I don't appear to have known enough about Arendt and found 'information' about her vague and mysterious. A comrade of mine seems to know much more about her than I do and had this to say about her work:

"I read "The Origins of Totalitarianism" at university and was not pleased. Typically American in its idealism. I believe she had very little concept of materialism, the real world explanation of historical events. The idea that the mass murder of the Jews was incidental, that the Nazis' purpose was a generalised terror is a ridiculous conclusion, particularly when she had previously outlined the origins of "scientific racism" (like a typical academic by studying "thinkers" and philosophy).

I later read "On Revolution" and felt sickened by its positive view of the American Revolution and bewildered by its stupid jargon.

She was a dyed in the wool bourgeois democrat. In the mid-twentieth century a lot of people were looking to actually existing democracy as an alternative to totalitarianism. Her "action" was doubtless some form of constitutional change.

Not a fan. At all."
 
Maybe of interest to this thread....
Video discussion on book launch of Futilitarianism : Neoliberalism and the Production of Uselessness by Neil Vallelly.

Neil Vallelly offers a rich tour of what he calls the futilitarian condition brought about by neoliberalization.
Systemic and ubiquitous, this condition deprives us of meaningful lives and robs the world of a future.
With an elegant pen, reader-friendly philosophical thoughtfulness, and scores of examples, Vallelly explains that gnawing feeling: "isn't what I'm doing--in my job, ecological practices, ethical consumerism and more--really futile?"
Becoming-common, he argues, is our only way out - Wendy Brown , University of California

( the audio & visual is out of sync )
 
Was recommended this book
Radical Happiness
Moments of Collective Joy
by Lynne Segal
A passionate call to rediscover the political and emotional joy that emerges when we share our lives
In an era of increasing individualism, we have never been more isolated and dispirited. A paradox confronts us. While research and technology find new ways to measure contentment and popular culture encourages us to think of happiness as a human right, misery is abundant.
Segal believes we have lost the art of “radical happiness”—the liberation that comes with transformative, collective joy. She argues that instead of obsessing about our own well-being we should seek fulfilment in the lives of others. Examining her own experience in the women’s movement, Segal looks at the relationship between love and sex, and the scope for utopian thinking as a means to a better future. She also shows how the gaps in care that come from the diminishing role of the welfare state must be replaced by alternative ways of living together and looking after one another.
In this brilliant and provocative book, Segal proposes that the power of true happiness can only be discovered collectively.

Reviews​

“The socialist feminist we need to listen to right now. Her book is an important one because we need ‘a politics of hope’ like never before.”
– Emma Rees, Times Higher Education
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I like the sound of the politics of hope
 
brixtonscot said:
Maybe of interest to this thread....
Video discussion on book launch of Futilitarianism : Neoliberalism and the Production of Uselessness by Neil Vallelly.

Neil Vallelly offers a rich tour of what he calls the futilitarian condition brought about by neoliberalization.
Systemic and ubiquitous, this condition deprives us of meaningful lives and robs the world of a future.
With an elegant pen, reader-friendly philosophical thoughtfulness, and scores of examples, Vallelly explains that gnawing feeling: "isn't what I'm doing--in my job, ecological practices, ethical consumerism and more--really futile?"
Becoming-common, he argues, is our only way out - Wendy Brown , University of California

( the audio & visual is out of sync )
Click to expand...

that was really interesting - boils down to capitalism / consumerism is utterly futile. There's a lot of ideas packed in there, will have to listen again to take more in. I liked what Lynne Segal said.

Author Neil spent a lot of time thanking every single person he knew (which was annoying to me, but maybe being grateful to every single person in your community helps strengthen that community?)
 
I'm sort of responding to the posts on Futilitarianism.
I question whether to understand human dissatisfaction and/or misery we need to create a new label.

I think disillusion and despair is a well trodden path in the ethical religions.
I'm no Buddhist theologian, but a reading of the charming little book "Siddharta" by Herman Hesse gives the essence.
Here was a man, princely born, who grew bored with his luxury life as a prince in the palace and gave it up to try "real life" in the outside world.
After a number of different career ;paths Siddharta hit a very low point - basically finding that everything he tried was indeed futile.
At which point he seems t have had an Isaac Newton moment whereby sitting under a tree he suddenly became aware of his meaning of life - the need for compassion.

The Christian story is sort of similar, but more manic.

Seems to me that the reason these myths have generated millions of followers over the years us that people are moved by this human feeling of compassion.
Obviously once the founders disappear in all religions you get warring factions often motivated by politics.

To me Futilitarianism is not really factional - it is a further refinement of understanding from a left perspective.
It may well be useful for courses at Goldsmiths and Kings College London - but it doesn't TOUCH me.
 
CH1 said:
I'm sort of responding to the posts on Futilitarianism.
I question whether to understand human dissatisfaction and/or misery we need to create a new label.

I think disillusion and despair is a well trodden path in the ethical religions.
I'm no Buddhist theologian, but a reading of the charming little book "Siddharta" by Herman Hesse gives the essence.
Here was a man, princely born, who grew bored with his luxury life as a prince in the palace and gave it up to try "real life" in the outside world.
After a number of different career ;paths Siddharta hit a very low point - basically finding that everything he tried was indeed futile.
At which point he seems t have had an Isaac Newton moment whereby sitting under a tree he suddenly became aware of his meaning of life - the need for compassion.

The Christian story is sort of similar, but more manic.

Seems to me that the reason these myths have generated millions of followers over the years us that people are moved by this human feeling of compassion.
Obviously once the founders disappear in all religions you get warring factions often motivated by politics.

To me Futilitarianism is not really factional - it is a further refinement of understanding from a left perspective.
It may well be useful for courses at Goldsmiths and Kings College London - but it doesn't TOUCH me.
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Compassion isn't a word that I have heard anyone use in a long time. Thanks CH1 - lets use it more.
 
yield said:
When hope is a hindrance
For Hannah Arendt, hope is a dangerous barrier to courageous action. In dark times, the miracle that saves the world is to act
Click to expand...
just musing on this. Hope v hopelessness and action v apathy.
Still keen to explore strategies for avoiding the inaction of depression, its so hard to know what 'courageous action' I can actually do.

I'd love to hear what urbs are you doing in these dark times to act?
 
All I can think of atm in acting to combat hopelessness, is to be involved in various grass roots community projects - all things that bring people together to support each other.

A couple of things have cheered me of late -
  • one is a lgbt housing organisation I'm involved with, someone talked about the need for consciousness raising amongst ourselves (first time I've heard the concept of CR raised in years)
  • the other is, the development of a local community centre project being lead by older people with as volunteers to develop a centre for services for themselves and the wider community.
 
" It is no measure of mental health , to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society "
Krishnamurti

I agree with above quote and that we are , in general , living in profoundly sick societies , particularly in modern so called "developed" countries , ie. imperialist white supremacist patriarchal capitalism (* see attached quote from bell hooks ) - which were built on the profits of slavery and colonial and working class exploitation.
Also ecological destruction , extreme wealth inequality , food banks , homelessness , addictions , pandemic , hyper-online culture , ( nuclear?)wars , prejudices and inequalities based on class , gender , ethnicity , sexuality

There are two perspectives , at least , that can be taken on this.

Conform and assimilate to "fit in" to such sick societies
Or
Challenge the foundations of these societies , individually and/or collectively - and the possible hope of transformation to something better.

As well as differing degrees of generalised traumas which can be experienced surviving in such societies , on the level of individuals , many can also experience differing degrees of trauma in our formative years.
This can be obvious, like abuse ( physical , emotional , sexual ) or more subtle and less obvious adverse experiences , that may not have conscious memories.

Parents can have best intentions , but still cause unintended distress to children , perhaps in attempting to get them to conform socially.

As (in)famous poem by Philip Larkin puts it -

" They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn "

Can these complex developmental traumas and adverse experiences of varying degrees have long lasting effects into adulthood ?

If we could be "imprinted" neurologically in our formative years , could it be possible to attempt to understand the intersections of the personal , neurological , psychological , biological , social and political contributory influences in adult life , individually and collectively and wider social and political implications ?

Short animated video here on Trauma & Nervous System
 

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Not involved in DAN, but this is uplifting :)

docs.google.com

DAN REUNION Action Notice

Urgent Action Notice (18/03/2022) D.A.N. Reunion Action Join Disabled People's Direct Action Network and friends for a Free Our People memorial action. On: 18th March 2022 At: 13:30 Meeting point: Parliament Square, London. What are we doing? We will be supporting calls for the BSL act, ...
docs.google.com docs.google.com
 
brixtonscot said:
" It is no measure of mental health , to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society "
Krishnamurti

I agree with above quote and that we are , in general , living in profoundly sick societies , particularly in modern so called "developed" countries , ie. imperialist white supremacist patriarchal capitalism (* see attached quote from bell hooks ) - which were built on the profits of slavery and colonial and working class exploitation.
Also ecological destruction , extreme wealth inequality , food banks , homelessness , addictions , pandemic , hyper-online culture , ( nuclear?)wars , prejudices and inequalities based on class , gender , ethnicity , sexuality

There are two perspectives , at least , that can be taken on this.

Conform and assimilate to "fit in" to such sick societies
Or
Challenge the foundations of these societies , individually and/or collectively - and the possible hope of transformation to something better.
Click to expand...

I see a third and fourth option, which involve adapting without assimilation:

* conform enough to get along, but cope by trying to make things better on an individual basis. Creating and supporting foodbanks are an adaptation that mitigates the effects of a sick society.

* drop out completely, like Ted Kaczynski - Wikipedia, with or without blowing people up--one hopes without, since its a particularly sick adaptation to a sick society.
 
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Apologies if this has already been posted - or if people have heard it before (it seems to be popular in the Mindfulness community right now)
I first heard this at Brighton Unitarian Church about 25 years ago, where it formed the basis of the sermon by the late Rev Steve Dick, an American minister who made his life career in the British Unitarian Church.

Autobiography in Five Short Chapters - Portia Nelson

Chapter I
I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost ... I am helpless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes me forever to find a way out.

Chapter II
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But it isn't my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.

Chapter III
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in ... it's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.

Chapter IV
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

Chapter V
I walk down another street.
 
friendofdorothy said:
Thank you CH1 I've never seen it before. Following that imagery I wondering what street to walk down to avoid those holes.
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I feel in retropsect that I have repeatedly made mistakes in life, and always really by following "gut instinct".
On the other hand some creative changes have also happened that way for me.

I found the text whilst doing a "clear out" of papers on the lving room floor. Serendipity?
 
My daughter and I are fundraising 10K to start a 'maternity wear for refugees' charity. She is (enormously) pregs and evangelistic about having a few nice, comfy clothes. Not any old things either because pregnancy is such an odd shape, but good quality, supportive clothing. We figure a small team of volunteers, premises and a website should do it. She already works for Social Workers Without Borders so has a lot of contacts.
 
This video randomly came up on my new Smart TV this morning and spoke to my "Lived Experience"
The lecturer make reference to DBT - Dielectical Behavioural Therapy.

I looked this up on the SLAM/Maudsley website. Apparently they do this at the Maudsley satellite private clinic in Abu Dhabi - but not here in London on the NHS.

I actually don't feel too bad at present - but this lecturer made me want to emigrate to Ireland for treatment!
 

friendofdorothy good reboot above.​

Made my mind turns now to one of my heroes - Dorothy Rowe, the Doyen of Depression (in my view).
I see from her website (Welcome To The Website Of...) that she has in fact died - of a disease I have suffered from all my life. Good news about that is that Dorothy Rowe died at 89!

I once attended a lecture by her at Conway Hall, where she revealed she had threatened to sue the BBC when they edited her contribution to one of their Ethics programmes to imply she thought religion was a great comfort. Turns out Dorothy was not a great fan of religion and didn't want her message hijacked by the God Squad!

​

The Purpose of Paranoia (February 2005)​

Dorothy Rowe
Last November I was speaker at the Anarchist Book Fair in London. Three nights before I had been speaking at the Royal Society for the Arts. These were two very different audiences, but with both, as ever, there was a queue of people wanting to speak to me after my talk. Some of these people simply wanted to tell me that they had found my books helpful which, as you can imagine, is enormously heartening, but there were also several people who wanted to ask me something quite personal about themselves. This is always difficult for me as we are never in a private situation. The person usually introduces the subject haltingly, often in a way which takes me a while to understand. It slowly dawns on me that I am being asked something huge, something which, if I were presented with it in the privacy of my study, would cause me to pause, consider, and answer slowly and carefully. Yet here I am presented with one of life's greatest problems in a totally personal form and in a public space. I stumble through some kind of answer, and afterwards ponder, worry, and work out what I ought to have said.
The people in the RSA queue who asked me difficult questions talked about the kinds of trauma which I have encountered, either personally or through my clients, and so I was able to make some reasonably sensible suggestions about what might be done, but a man at the Anarchist Book Fair asked me something which at first seemed to be right outside my experience and expertise.
English was not his first language, and I had to concentrate hard to understand what he was saying. He was asking me about a friend. Often, when a questioner asks me about a friend I suspect that the person is actually asking about himself, but here the man's friend was a woman. Like him she was a refugee from Saddam's Iraq. She had been given refugee status, so I assumed that terrible things had happened to her. He spoke of her intense suffering as a refugee and of her passionate concern about her country, and then of her success in completing a university degree after coming to England. What troubled him was that at the point in her life when she was at last free from political persecution, when she had right of residence in a safe, stable country, and she had achieved academic success she began to slip into a state of paranoia. She had always discussed political matters with her friends in a very intelligent and knowledgeable way, but now she brought to such discussions her conviction that she was under constant CIA supervision and her every deed and thought was being recorded by them.
I know about paranoia but I don't know directly about living in a police state and about being tortured. I spoke to him about the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture and about those psychiatrists and psychologists who have specialised in working with refugees, but I knew that paranoid people are likely to see such professionals as agents of the persecuting power. The man's mention of the CIA aroused the interest of those waiting to speak to me and they pressed closer to listen. We decided to end our conversation, but not before I said something about how paranoia was a defence which we can use to hold ourselves together when we feel ourselves falling apart. A young woman who had been listening to our conversation now asked me to explain what I meant by this.
I tried to explain briefly that whenever we discover that something which had given meaning, purpose and structure to our life has suddenly disappeared we feel our very sense of being a person shattering, crumbling, even disappearing. It is utterly terrifying. This can happen when a person loses the job on which he had built his identity, or lost the family which defined his life's purpose. It is common for people in such situations to blame themselves for the disaster that has befallen them, and thus become depressed. However, when a person has grown up in a situation where his family are the victims of political persecution, where his every action and thought have to take into account the constant danger he is in, then his ideas about persecution and the defences against persecution can become central to his understanding of himself. If he escapes from this persecution to a place of safety but loses family and friends along the way he can find himself falling apart in a world where he feels himself to be completely alone. To hold himself together he can reconstitute the ideas of persecution and defence in a way which is part fantasy, part reality. These ideas will give a structure and purpose to his life and will also assure him that he is not entirely alone. The great benefit of paranoia is that someone, somewhere is thinking of you.
I don't know whether any of this applies to the woman from Iraq. I could know that only by talking to her. But I have met many paranoid people and have seen how these people actually valued their paranoia. They might not be happy but they are sure that their life has significance.
When the crowd around me had dispersed I moved to another part of the room to record an interview for an anarchist internet radio station (number of listeners: 10). As I waited for the recording equipment to be set up the man from Iraq approached me and asked how best he could help his friend. 'Just continue to do what you're doing,' I replied. 'Be her friend. Don't tell her her ideas are wrong but help her keep them in some kind of proportion so that she doesn't get too frightened.' Afterwards I thought, 'That's really the answer for all our problems. Make sure that you've got a good friend!'
Dorothy Rowe Beyond Fear second edition, HarperCollins​
 
Democracy Now interview with Gabor Maté about his new book -
“The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture."
"The very values of a society are traumatizing for a lot of people," says Maté, who argues in his book that "psychological trauma, woundedness, underlies much of what we call disease."
 
brixtonscot said:
Democracy Now interview with Gabor Maté about his new book -
“The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture."
"The very values of a society are traumatizing for a lot of people," says Maté, who argues in his book that "psychological trauma, woundedness, underlies much of what we call disease."
Click to expand...

I'm a bit foxed by this one. Summary seems to be that sometimes some people have transformative experiences which greatly improve their morale and give them a positive view of life - in which case even physical illnesses become easier to bear and can even resolve themselves.

Can't disagree with that, but what fascinates me is Dr Maté's "look". I have never thought I was a picture - but his extremely wizened features (in old age) make one realise there is still some way to go! Terrible thing to say I know.

I think his thesis that trauma can be produced by adverse social settings is obviously true - in my own case I have taken the rest of my life to recover from bullying by fellow pupils at my minor Headmasters Conference boarding school. Something which other people assume must have been a privilege to attend. Someone gave me this book
1663963293577.png
Nothing new in a way - its been covered dramatically in "Lord of the Flies" and the Lindsay Anderson film "If...."
A much more positive view is in this amazing 1974 BBC film for "Play for the Day" (apologies if I've upped it before). Here you get the maturing schoolboy - whose father is himself an outsider - exploring himself through music and religious doubt. The neighbours are Green atheists who "cannot have children". Deep stuff.
www.h2movies.to

Penda’s Fen

Through a series of real and imagined encounters with angels, demons, and England's pagan past, a pastor's son begins to question his religion and politics, and comes to terms with his sexuality.
www.h2movies.to www.h2movies.to
 
brixtonscot said:
Democracy Now interview with Gabor Maté about his new book -
“The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture."
"The very values of a society are traumatizing for a lot of people," says Maté, who argues in his book that "psychological trauma, woundedness, underlies much of what we call disease."
Click to expand...

I've said for many years - there is no such thing as normal, it's just common.

I've only recently become aware of the idea of collective trauma and coming to terms with post thatcher stress disorder.

We live in a mad world.

I've seen YouTube's of Gabor Mate and he is an engaging speaker.
 
For Mindfulness fans. Dr Florian Ruths (who treated me with Lithium at Community Health in Norwood Hight St/Streatham High Rd in 2010/11) is on this podcast.

I'd forgotten how personable and yet bonkers he is. He never suggested Mindfulness to me - but that was not the remit in community psychiatry, it was more how to bring the patient down to earth without screwing the benefits.
If I tell you that St Florian is the patron saint of firemen you might get why I myself personally am skeptical of mindfulness - even Mindfulness on a Motorbike à la Dr Florian.
 
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