Climate Camp 2008 - Will You Be Going?

[free spirit]

I've now copied this stuff across to the separate thread Enumbers started, so probably best to carry on any discussion on that thread and leave this one for other climate camp stuff.

 

[e19896]

He didn't just make a careless comment. He clearly stated the same thing in three different posts before I said anything, and has since refused to withdraw it.



As I've already explained, that is calling many honest people liars. I am entirely justified in asking him to withdraw the accusation, when he can't even come up with a single argument to support it.


What more difficult issue? There weren't any issues addressed to me on this thread before I posted, so the idea that I posted to avoid one doesn't make any sense.


To be clearer by "far right" I meant extreme free market types (like I said earlier), which seem to be the most common ones. Followed by CT nuts and creationists.


It's an anti-scientific one.

The idea that you can just alter facts because you don't like them is fucking stupid, and should be stamped out in any movement that wants to achieve anything.


It sounded genuine enough to me.


I agree they should have done. Hopefully there will be some dialogue now they've written to each other.

i will make it clear i feel climate change is a lie, i have no need to remove any comments i have made, me and dave are not the best of mates but i simply put on a thinking hat and got some clear perspectives on this, i know not the background to daves intervention but i do welcome it and if the climate movement has any shit about so should they.

as free spirit said the debate moves on and i welcome this debate, on a lie the stormtroopers of government propaganda are so willing to take as read, me i have never trust governments or the lies of the middle class, therefor there is nothing i need to remove or say sorry for i owe nothing to those who keep me under occupation, but i do owe the working class a lot more..

 

[e19896]

Thanks for the hug. You do realise I'm middle class don't you?


TBH, I'm more concerned about e19896 trying to spread far-right disinformation at the moment. The letter itself does not at all support his position and there is not much in it that I don't agree with. You can assume I agree with the parts I don't quote.

I don't know much about the various carbon capture schemes and was planning to look into them before replying. They may well turn out to be a useful stop-gap measure. I'd certainly prefer that to nuclear fission reactors.


It doesn't appear to be using any kind of carbon capture scheme. Their website says:

That doesn't sound very promising for the miners.


I'm not sure if that's intended as a blanket opposition to wind farms. If it is I disagree. But if it's just a recognition that they are inappropriate in some places, then fine.


As I think free spirit pointed out elsewhere (I can't find it now), it would be nice if this could be extended to opposition to new plants without carbon capture. And again there seems to be some confusion between "clean coal" meaning low sulphur as opposed to carbon capture.

BTW, I'd be interested to see your replies to the responses put to you earlier by 4thwrite and by Matt S.

far right propaganda so we disagree with you and we are the far right fucking lefty bullshit, once again the working class do not accept you argument and we are called far right and you wonder why there is a rise in the far right? simple because you and people like you simply throw this one at us each time we disagree with you..

 

[Signal 11]

i will make it clear i feel climate change is a lie

I've asked you to make it clear why you feel that way. Why are you calling people liars without providing a shred of evidence that they are lying? You have asked people to join with you in that position. You are not going to convince anyone if you don't provide any arguments in favour of it.

i have no need to remove any comments i have made

So you think it's fine to just make baseless accusations without justifying them.

on a lie the stormtroopers of government propaganda

This is nothing to do with government propaganda, it is to do with science, as I have already explained.

me i have never trust governments or the lies of the middle class

Straw man. Nobody asked you to trust either. And your implied accusation that I trust them is entirely false. Again, this is a typical CT argument.

far right propaganda so we disagree with you and we are the far right

Who's we? I haven't seen anyone agree with you. Except for the far right and CT nuts etc.

once again the working class do not accept you argument

No, you don't accept it. You haven't provided any evidence to show that "the working class" don't accept it, as if they all had one single opinion.

 

[durruti02]

e - numbers - ok i really do not understand your insistance that CC is a lie and you have alos not backed up that arguement ..

and p.s. i am broadly sympathetic to Openly Classist line on the m/c but utterly fail to undetrstand how a clear scientific theory is being accused of being a m/c / govt lie .. in the US the state is STILL covering up CC at the behest of big oil

 

[Taxamo Welf]

I have not the patience to wade through the nonsense that I would find within an event like this. I take my hat off to Dave Douglass, hes started an important dialogue.

read the response OL....

Please.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

]and p.s. i am broadly sympathetic to Openly Classist line on the m/c but utterly fail to undetrstand how a clear scientific theory is being accused of being a m/c / govt lie .. in the US the state is STILL covering up CC at the behest of big oil

thank you, JESUS! Someone with some sense.

apart from the openly classist bit, remind me not to hang around with you any more!

 

[e19896]

e - numbers - ok i really do not understand your insistance that CC is a lie and you have alos not backed up that arguement ..

and p.s. i am broadly sympathetic to Openly Classist line on the m/c but utterly fail to undetrstand how a clear scientific theory is being accused of being a m/c / govt lie .. in the US the state is STILL covering up CC at the behest of big oil

Ha openly Classit now we are talking.. I agree i have not back up my disagreement with what i call the lie of climate change and fact is there is not much that can back up this feeling i have, except the c4 program the far right and other off the fringe conspiracy loons, but because i disagree with the premise of climate change dose this make me far right? a conspiracy loon and in the camp of all the other nutters who disagree with climate change of course not..

durruti02 i could not agree more, along with free spirit you have both moved me along a little on this and Signal 11 because i disagree with you dose not make far right or any of the other absurd aligations you make check out some facts here pretentiousartist.com go look and you will find out that myself is openly classit, class strugle anarchist and militant anti fascist long term sqauter that lives through respect to my earth substanably on 80 pounds a week and only takes what i need for a very basic life, i reckon my carbon footprint is fucking low, i live like i do out of respect to the working class of the world and the earth i live upon not due to propaganda and lies we as working class are told but because i respect the working class and this earth.

So in conclusion Signal 11 because i have not entered into your delusion dose not make me who you proclaim me to be, i work hard and play hard and evryday is an ongoing part of the class struggle..

 

[Signal 11]

I agree i have not back up my disagreement with what i call the lie of climate change and fact is there is not much that can back up this feeling i have

So you're calling people liars and asking us to take a far right position based on a "feeling" you have.

except the c4 program

That program was hogwash produced by far right propagandists. Its claims have been refuted by MediaLens and RealClimate and here on urban. Earlier you said you don't believe the lies of the middle class, but you certainly seem to have swallowed these.

durruti02 i could not agree more

You don't agree with him. You think climate change is a "lie" and he doesn't.

along with free spirit you have both moved me along a little on this

In what way has your position changed?

Signal 11 because i disagree with you dose not make [me] far right

I didn't say it does. But you are taking a far right position on this issue, and asking others to do so, without providing any reason. Like I said, I doubt if anyone will join you.

So in conclusion Signal 11 because i have not entered into your delusion

State precisely to what "delusion" you refer and provide evidence of it, or withdraw the allegation.

 

[smokedout]

Signal, questioning man-made climate change is NOT a far right psition, get over yourself

and you are a liar if you are saying that man made climate change is a fact, its a theory around which many scientists have agreed consensus

some scientists disagree

i dont think you know much about science

 

[Signal 11]

Signal, questioning man-made climate change is NOT a far right psition

The vast majority of climate change deniers are on the far right.

and you are a liar if you are saying that man made climate change is a fact

There is a margin of error on predictions of temperature levels etc, but there is no doubt on the basic facts, which I summarised here. If you have anything to dispute them, provide it.

some scientists disagree

No climate scientists dispute the basic facts.

i dont think you know much about science

You have certainly showed yourself to know nothing about it.

 

[durruti02]

Ha openly Classit now we are talking.. I agree i have not back up my disagreement with what i call the lie of climate change and fact is there is not much that can back up this feeling i have, except the c4 program the far right and other off the fringe conspiracy loons, but because i disagree with the premise of climate change dose this make me far right? a conspiracy loon and in the camp of all the other nutters who disagree with climate change of course not..

durruti02 i could not agree more, along with free spirit you have both moved me along a little on this and Signal 11 because i disagree with you dose not make far right or any of the other absurd aligations you make check out some facts here pretentiousartist.com go look and you will find out that myself is openly classit, class strugle anarchist and militant anti fascist long term sqauter that lives through respect to my earth substanably on 80 pounds a week and only takes what i need for a very basic life, i reckon my carbon footprint is fucking low, i live like i do out of respect to the working class of the world and the earth i live upon not due to propaganda and lies we as working class are told but because i respect the working class and this earth.

So in conclusion Signal 11 because i have not entered into your delusion dose not make me who you proclaim me to be, i work hard and play hard and evryday is an ongoing part of the class struggle..

ok you know what .. sometimes i TOO have a feeling the human cause of Climate Change MAY be a con .. but i am always suspicious of all things .. ( as we all should be )


.. but there is absolutely NO evidence to suggest it is a con and absolutly TONS of evidence to say it is NOT a con .. for links check the Climate Camp website

p.s. imho it is also important that while it is ok despising those m/c who seek to always control and acknowledging the key role the m/c PLAY in controling people, it should not not spill over into refusing to accept anything that is repeated by the mouths of the m/c .. it constantly winds me up to hear everytime an environmentalist speaks that they are m/c .. but what they say is often right

 

[smokedout]

The vast majority of climate change deniers are on the far right.

that does not mean that its a far right position

interestingly if this graph you posted contained data from the last 18 months or so then the red line would be sitting at around -0.4

 

[Signal 11]

interestingly if this graph you posted contained data from the last 18 months or so then the red line would be sitting at around -0.4

And your source is? e2a: The climate research unit isn't showing any such thing: graph - data

Of course there are short term fluctuations in the temperature. Nobody has claimed that CO2 is the only factor affecting it. This is about the long term trend.

 

[smokedout]

source

that graphs further revealing though, from 1880 to 1910 the temperature fell about .4, which is about the same as the growth between 1970 and 2000

the temperature slump from 1880 onwards which bottems out at a temperature fall below the mean almost exactly the same as the temperature peak of the last 30 years stands above the mean

do you presume that the temperature slump from 1880 onwards was man made as well?

and now the temperature has slumped again, we'll have to see if the early part of this century was a temperature peak or whether the downward trend will continue

 

[Signal 11]

source

A news report about cold weather. Which talks about a drop in air temperature, and a smaller one than you claimed. To make a valid comparison you have to measure the same thing. The data I linked above does that and shows the value 0.8 higher than you said. Your article also makes clear that the cold weather it is talking about is not evidence against climate change.

Even so, global warming skeptics such as Arizona State University climatologist Robert Balling aren't seizing on this weird season as proof that climate change isn't happening.

"I doubt the trend is statistically significant at this time," Balling said.

that graphs further revealing though, from 1880 to 1910 the temperature fell about .4

Do you really think that the climate scientists are not aware of what is on their own graphs, and if only they had you to point it out to them, all their theories would be overturned?

and now the temperature has slumped again

No, it decreased slightly from the previous high level which is not at all unexpected, as your article explains. It is still well above the standard 1961-1990 average.

 

[smokedout]

i never said it was significant, just interesting

as is the fact that global temperature has remained pretty much constant prior to that for the last ten years

except of course there isn't actually any such thing as 'global temperature'

 

[smokedout]

btw in the graph you linked to it does seem to suggest a drop in the last year it plots.

it also shows that the temperature peaked in the late nineties and then fell slightly and has remained pretty constant ever since. in fact looking at the graph the last ten years or so seem to have been the most stable ever recorded.

 

[e19896]

ok you know what .. sometimes i TOO have a feeling the human cause of Climate Change MAY be a con .. but i am always suspicious of all things .. ( as we all should be )


.. but there is absolutely NO evidence to suggest it is a con and absolutly TONS of evidence to say it is NOT a con .. for links check the Climate Camp website

p.s. imho it is also important that while it is ok despising those m/c who seek to always control and acknowledging the key role the m/c PLAY in controling people, it should not not spill over into refusing to accept anything that is repeated by the mouths of the m/c .. it constantly winds me up to hear everytime an environmentalist speaks that they are m/c .. but what they say is often right

Signal 11 is now on ignore, can they not read? or do they just desire to a storm trooper of the middle class who cares and who knows. i agree with much of what is said here durruti02 and instead of taking snipes at the middle class we are thinking of doing a reprint of the enemy is middle class and i found this little gem..

thought these workshops at climate camp looked good.
1.
" burn the rich, not the planet; or why diy biofuel molotovs are not the answer: - a critique by anarcho-permaculturalists against the meat-speculation-swf-industrial-complex, with a video conference with a paraguayan farmer powered by 1000 bicycle critical mass alt fuel generation. In this workshop Jose will also critique fair trade"

2.
Followed by ' beyond the hippy-middle-class-environment movement, - a trans-class perspective for those wishing to
'pass' off more working class cred'. we try and take steps past the hippy/class-war/nvda/va divide and come up with micro-political post-identity hybrids. this workshop includes diy solar powered rainbow balaclava making session "
also

training the trainers
3. 'talk poor for class war' pre-climate camp workshop, for those wanting to learn to speak prole' coz the proles need climate science simple like, geezer. run by expert class fakers class war federation.

3.5 enviro-justice. how to make black folks like ecology ?

4 eco-feminists against green-facism. channelling the ghost of murray bookchin, our anarcho-pagans will conduct a debate between janet biehl, bob black and the spirit of bookchin

5. diy squatjuice from biofuels.
crazy times call for crazy drugs. when food can be fuel, why cant biofuel be converted to squitjuice as a solution of solidarity to those suffering from peak-water. ( the indigenous glacial people of nepal for example ) ... our hack-la@b micro-brewery will show you how you can can become part of a new copy-left crazee that is sweeping activists by storm, collective co-production on ethical intoxicants. with special guest stewart holmes.

6. just-another-crisis, it the end of the world but not capitalism, gala daggy disco, 'this is not mad max' finally party.

7. trot watching! are post-trots trots too ? as trots encircle the camps ideas, how do we keep ideological purity ?

8. cycles of struggle, 1 or 2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad. from the barcelona working mens (sic ) courier federation., to world naked bike riders, provo free bikes, rts ludic festivals, self-management for 2 wheels bike squatted factory unionists in germany. rebel clown unicyclists.
, bike couriers unions.

9. bash the eco-fash with stewart holmes, coz all anarchists are 'swamp monsters' and recouperators of situationism!!!

10. fly or die, autonomous astronauts - diy eco-aircraft for the poor.

Yet more

-" the full vegan " theatre production remake of the full monty ( a film about post-industrial desperation by mine workers ) - the most rightgeos play ever. Veganism is the answer, sorry what was the question ?

- miners and greens vs coal - social football match. coz capital is a social relationship!

- anti-repression organising and defence, learning from the miners strikes...

- beyond narrow identitites for the objects of our solidarity. meet indigenous-migrant-worker-hybrids from the south. because no subjectivation is single.

- Crisis talks, while is the scariest ? How will capital restructure after the bust of the coming economic-greenwash-individual lifestyle green consumption and techno-fix profit bubble ? How will the poor pay for it ?

- peak oil is answer. sorry wrong question.?

- boo meat. !! anti-meat chants practice.

- anarcho-primative swamp enclave - rock breaking as ludic fun. it was good for the wild people - help us throw stuff at leviathan-hegemoney-babylon. zerzan with his polemic against the zapatistas and marcos and against the indigenous lead 'canadian' wasase movement - here why they are not Anarchist! or even indigenous but too modern! We argue that wildness and wilderness are not just the racist constructs of white middle class conservative and destroy the cannon of anti-colonialism.

- food riots vs dumster diving - whats more ethical ?

- working class sex ? whats it like ? how is the working class reproduced ?

- vegan sex. is it an insult to the species being of plants to use veges as edible sex toys ? also s+m talk ...

- miners film and eco-war gig fundraiser - coz the state wont compensate them...featuring folk-crunk-post-crust-raggacore polka band ' thatchers revenge'

 

[Bakunin]

Signal 11 is now on ignore, can they not read? or do they just desire to a storm trooper of the middle class who cares and who knows. i agree with much of what is said here durruti02 and instead of taking snipes at the middle class we are thinking of doing a reprint of the enemy is middle class and i found this little gem..

Looks to me as though you're losing the argument and getting angry about it.

And stop acting as though you speak for the entire working class while you're at it, it makes you look foolish.

 

[e19896]

Looks to me as though you're losing the argument and getting angry about it.

And stop acting as though you speak for the entire working class while you're at it, it makes you look foolish.

did i say i was there voice? losing what argument it seems some people only read what they desire and ignore the rest and do fuck of with patronising's condescending tone angry indeed, no i just find wankers tiresome

 

[Signal 11]

btw in the graph you linked to it does seem to suggest a drop in the last year it plots.

Yes, due to La Nina as the article you linked to above said.

it also shows that the temperature peaked in the late nineties and then fell slightly and has remained pretty constant ever since.

The peak in 1998 was due to the strong El Nino at that time.

I've already told you that nobody is claiming that CO2 is the only factor that affects the climate. You are simply making a straw man argument here.

Maybe we could save a bit of time if we consider this in a more general sense. You seem to have looked at the graph and thought what you saw proved the scientists wrong. As far as I can see there are three possibilities in this case:

1) The scientists are all too stupid to notice what you noticed.
2) They did notice, but are all conspiring to cover it up. By publishing it on the internet.
3) They did notice, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

I'll leave it to you to work out which one is correct.

Anyway if you're just saying you're skeptical and giving reasons why you don't support the climate camp, I don't have a problem with that. I only posted on this thread because of e19896 accusing the scientists of lying and trying to encourage others to join him in his irrational position. Now he's put me on ignore I'll probably go back to lurking.

 

[Bakunin]

Bumped as the Climate Camp starts next Sunday.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Bumped as the Climate Camp starts next Sunday.

Cool.

I assume with all this global warming, you won't be needing a tent.

 

[Bakunin]

Cool.

I assume with all this global warming, you won't be needing a tent.

It's the British summer, lol.

A tent is very much on my list of things I'll be taking.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Im probably, mostly cos I missed the other 2. Last time I was at somthing anything like was Stirling for the G8.

I know there are huge macro and micro political issues but I know I will be in a better position to positively criticise if I go.

Also its about the process of consensus and sustainable living rather than just the action.

If I go I will be doing a workshop on an anti-ID tip. All activistism is under threat from the database state.

 

[Bakunin]

Am really looking forward to this event now.

Transport arrangements are more or less finalised so it's a definite goer for me now. As I haven't done a Climate Camp before it'll be something new for me to get my teeth into.

 

[smokedout]

here's one of them far right scientists who appears to have changed his mind about global warming

"I DEVOTED six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office. I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia's compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector."

No smoking hot spot

 

[Signal 11]

Evans is not a climate scientist. He is associated with right wing think tanks. (see: http://www.desmogblog.com/node/3228). The false claims in his article are debunked here.

 

[durruti02]

Evans is not a climate scientist. He is associated with right wing think tanks. (see: http://www.desmogblog.com/node/3228). The false claims in his article are debunked here.

smkoked???? any reply?

btw you will find this for pretty well all the so called sceptics .. maybe they ARE right .. but they are NOT showing any decent science while those who SUGGEST a human link to climate change have a significant scientific basis of their claim