Cameron launches "Big Society"

[ericjarvis]

Oh and I never said burden, ViolentPanda used to term to describe how the older generation see claiming benefits they feel they can do without. Anyone that needs help, go ahead and claim cos that's what it's there for. But don't claim cos you think you've paid into some saving account that means the money is rightfully yours. I hope never to claim, and the money I pay in goes to someone who is more unlucky (ill or just can't find work). But if I do get poorly, like if my husband's arthritis gets so bad he can't work and for whatever reason I can't either, then I'd claim.

Why not?

It's a simple basic and sensible form of social organisation. Everyone puts a bit into the pot when they can, and takes some out of the pot when they need to. Nothing wrong with that, and if you want to describe it as wrong then you really ought to come up with a logical justification for your attitude rather than simply insulting people on the basis of knowing next to nothing about their situation.

Personally I get the impression that your attitude is primarily about boosting your own self esteem by doing down others rather than actually doing anything yourself, and about faking a justification for greed and selfishness, by using a shallow and vacuous characterisation of a snapshot of the present with no reference to past or future. Worst of all you are getting increasingly pompous about it.

Incidentally, going back to an earlier point. I started doing voluntary work for the community in my teens, and I'm still doing as much of it as I can in my 50s. Not only don't I see that as particularly big and clever, I am surrounded by people who do much the same with a similar attitude. I also regularly encounter people who do voluntary work primarily for self aggrandisement. Oddly enough they also seem to be the ones who regularly moan about other people being a burden and not doing their share. All I can say is "fuck them", there's too much stuff needs doing to worry about tossers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh and I never said burden, ViolentPanda used to term...

Nope, that was another poster, I was merely commenting on what they said. See what I mean about embarrassing yourself by not reading the thread properly?

....to describe how the older generation see claiming benefits they feel they can do without.

Wrong again, the point was that some of the older generation don't claim what they need to claim because of a range of taboos that have been generated on the subject.

Anyone that needs help, go ahead and claim cos that's what it's there for. But don't claim cos you think you've paid into some saving account that means the money is rightfully yours.

Nobody except you has suggested that people do that or should do that.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's what you do to put food on the table and contribute to society. Great if it can be both them things, but fact is for most people it can't.

so most people's work either doesn't put food on the table or contribute to society. looks like you're making progress.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah well politicians are mostly a load of thieving cunts anyway. I just wanna see the day when they back the fuck off, stop taxing us to shit and leave us to sort our own stuff out. I'd fucking much rather my kids school were just given the money and left to run the school as the teachers see fit. Same with the hospitals. Just fuck off all the managers and let the doctors run it. But every time shit like this gets suggested people on the left just pop up with all this bullshit about how UNFAIR it would be, and how normal working people couldn't possibly be educated enough to run a fucking library. Turns out most of them just look after them and theirs anyway.

I'd rather rely on my neighbours than the fucking system but there you go.

so you think teachers and doctors do things most people can't do but somehow people who specialise in the provision of information are different and anyone can do their job?[/QUOTE]

 

[dennisr]

Oh and I never said burden, ViolentPanda used to term to describe how the older generation see claiming benefits they feel they can do without. Anyone that needs help, go ahead and claim cos that's what it's there for. But don't claim cos you think you've paid into some saving account that means the money is rightfully yours. I hope never to claim, and the money I pay in goes to someone who is more unlucky (ill or just can't find work). But if I do get poorly, like if my husband's arthritis gets so bad he can't work and for whatever reason I can't either, then I'd claim.

Actually it was me who quoted the term as used by an elderly neighbour. But what I never said was "how the older generation see claiming benefits they feel they can do without" - this old lady does not feel she 'can do without' she does not know she is entitled to it. There is a massive underspend in benefits for the elderly that is not taken up - it is not because she does not need it - she definately needs it.

As for your old man's arthritis - here is the letter you will receive: "Dear Edie's husband, We have decided you are capable of working (because you can still crawl) therefore your benefit comes to tuppence half-penny. Your partner's income will be deducted from this. If you do not take whatever shit job for peanuts we offer you (despite the income making it not worth working) you will loose this benefit Fuck you. Signed - The Coalition of Millionaries - ps thanks for the gullible flag waving and bigotry you have so faithfully displayed on our behalves up until this point..."

 

[ericjarvis]

Work isn't appropriate or fulfilling all the fucking time. It's what you do to put food on the table and contribute to society. Great if it can be both them things, but fact is for most people it can't. It's a very priviledged position to go, ah, no fuck it that just aint fulfilling enough for me.

You are missing the point. I'm increasingly certain this is because you have no ability to see situations in terms of past, present and future, and only see what currently is spreading out in both directions.

Take me as an example. I have professional skills in several fields. I'm skilled and experienced sufficiently to pull down rather a decent salary when I'm healthy. What you seem to be suggesting is that it would be better for me, when out of work, to take the first low paid long hours job that comes along, rather than concentrating on trying to get something more rewarding. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out that's just plain stupid. The country will get more out of me in taxes if I earn £30k plus for 4 years than if I earn £15k for 6 years.

Why the hell should somebody be forced to waste their talents in a job that anyone could do rather than taking the time to find employment that allows them to use those talents for the maximum benefit of themself and everyone else?

It's an attitude that seems to have no relationship to reality at all. At least not to reality as experienced by any half way sentient adult.

 

[Edie]

I think most people can do most things with some training tbh Pickman's

The thing that do make me think was when (was it spangles?) said what if the teachers wouldn't want to teach their own way/ run their own school. It's not really occured to me that people may genuinely WANT to be told exactly how to do their jobs all the time by the Government. But there you go. Not got an answer for that

perhaps you could get back to this:

 

[Edie]

That genuinely made me lol

People should get what there owed if they have paid in. But up here, there are people who have never seriously worked. It's like a culture of not working. Your gonna tell me this is bollocks and I shouldn't believe what I read, but this is my experience. Where we used to live in our old street there were houses where literally no one worked and never would cos they didn't want to.

As for your old man's arthritis - here is the letter you will receive: "Dear Edie's husband, We have decided you are capable of working (because you can still crawl) therefore your benefit comes to tuppence half-penny. Your partner's income will be deducted from this. If you do not take whatever shit job for peanuts we offer you (despite the income making it not worth working) you will loose this benefit Fuck you. Signed - The Coalition of Millionaries - ps thanks for the gullible flag waving and bigotry you have so faithfully displayed on our behalves up until this point..."

 

[dennisr]

I think most people can do most things with some training tbh Pickman's

Not true - if you base that judgment on the level of your comments on this thread. I'd pity your kids if you were the one making decisions on their behalf.
You come across as a vacuous and selfish moron. Maybe you need some 'training'

 

[Streathamite]

I think you may be missing the point here.

she has in fact missed it like an eskimo found in dazed condition in a southampton supermarket has in fact missed his turning to his home

 

[Edie]

You are missing the point. I'm increasingly certain this is because you have no ability to see situations in terms of past, present and future, and only see what currently is spreading out in both directions.

Take me as an example. I have professional skills in several fields. I'm skilled and experienced sufficiently to pull down rather a decent salary when I'm healthy. What you seem to be suggesting is that it would be better for me, when out of work, to take the first low paid long hours job that comes along, rather than concentrating on trying to get something more rewarding. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out that's just plain stupid. The country will get more out of me in taxes if I earn £30k plus for 4 years than if I earn £15k for 6 years.

Why the hell should somebody be forced to waste their talents in a job that anyone could do rather than taking the time to find employment that allows them to use those talents for the maximum benefit of themself and everyone else?

It's an attitude that seems to have no relationship to reality at all. At least not to reality as experienced by any half way sentient adult.

No your wrong actually. I think you should have a bloody good crack at getting a job using your skills. But not forever obviously. If the work aint there it just aint there.

Tell me about the miners. Cos my husband's family moved up to the north east. And FiL says shit like 'What happened to the miners was terrible, but at the end of the day you cannot keep running mines at a loss to keep people in work'. What would you say to that (other than my FiL is an evil tory cocking cunt etc etc).

 

[Streathamite]

I think most people can do most things with some training tbh Pickman's

say WHAAAT???!!
Fuck.
Me.
Sideways.
Look edie, take it from me - it goes with my territory - no they can't, not to a safe and satisfactory degree

 

[frogwoman]

Correct me if Im wrong but at one point we were the 4th largest coal exporter in the world. And the majority of the mines were actually making a profit no?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Actually it was me who quoted the term as used by an elderly neighbour. But what I never said was "how the older generation see claiming benefits they feel they can do without" - this old lady does not feel she 'can do without' she does not know she is entitled to it. There is a massive underspend in benefits for the elderly that is not taken up - it is not because she does not need it - she definately needs it.

When talking to my dad about benefits for older people, he pointed me at an article in the Eastern Daily Press (their local paper) that used information from MacMillan and AgeUK to show that in the county of Norfolk alone (and remember that Norfolk is the most sparsely populated of all English counties) between £1.5-2 million went unclaimed in "special circumstances" Attendance Allowance alone. That's money that people dying of cancer could be using to make their final weeks a little more comfortable, if only the knew about it

As for your old man's arthritis - here is the letter you will receive: "Dear Edie's husband, We have decided you are capable of working (because you can still crawl) therefore your benefit comes to tuppence half-penny. Your partner's income will be deducted from this. If you do not take whatever shit job for peanuts we offer you (despite the income making it not worth working) you will loose this benefit Fuck you. Signed - The Coalition of Millionaries - ps thanks for the gullible flag waving and bigotry you have so faithfully displayed on our behalves up until this point..."

Yup. The only reason I have IB and full DLA is because I have so many chronic injuries and illnesses that I pretty much qualify several times over. Even so, I don't take it for granted that I won't get fucked over by the ConDems or whatever shambles follows them into power.

 

[Edie]

Not true - if you base that judgment on the level of your comments on this thread. I'd pity your kids if you were the one making decisions on their behalf.
You come across as a vacuous and selfish moron. Maybe you need some 'training'

Fuck off dennis, you don't know shit about me. Most people can do most things, don't believe the left wing hype about how you have to have a degree to do loads of jobs.

 

[killer b]

They were. The mines making a loss thing is an old tory lie.

 

[Proper Tidy]

No your wrong actually. I think you should have a bloody good crack at getting a job using your skills. But not forever obviously. If the work aint there it just aint there.

Tell me about the miners. Cos my husband's family moved up to the north east. And FiL says shit like 'What happened to the miners was terrible, but at the end of the day you cannot keep running mines at a loss to keep people in work'. What would you say to that (other than my FiL is an evil tory cocking cunt etc etc).

I'd say that he was wrong, that the pits were not economically unsustainable and that losses were manufactured and exploited by the Tories to justify an attack on the most organised workforce in the country as a precursor to neo-liberal shock 'reforms'. And that he shouldn't believe the shite he reads in right-wing rags.

 

[Edie]

say WHAAAT???!!
Fuck.
Me.
Sideways.
Look edie, take it from me - it goes with my territory - no they can't, not to a safe and satisfactory degree

Fucking thick us working class people arent we.

 

[dennisr]

People should get what there owed if they have paid in. But up here, there are people who have never seriously worked. It's like a culture of not working. Your gonna tell me this is bollocks and I shouldn't believe what I read, but this is my experience. Where we used to live in our old street there were houses where literally no one worked and never would cos they didn't want to.

No i'm not - I'm sure there are areas who were well and truely fucked by the previous Tory administration (followed through by New Labour) - Manufacturing industry destroyed (particularly in the North). So the jobs on offer now are for burger flipping for peanuts. Why on earth would anyone want to get out of bed for that?? I lived in Liverpool for a decade - the city emptied out as folk moved for work. Its still empty now.

And yep, I'm sure there is the beginnings of generations who now have little experience of work and no incentive to. Working class communities have been devastated. No question about it. A direct result of the policies of the free market idiots you cheer lead. One of the results is the political idiocy of idiots fighting over crumbs from the big man;s table that you represent so well

 

[cesare]

Fuck off dennis, you don't know shit about me. Most people can do most things, don't believe the left wing hype about how you have to have a degree to do loads of jobs.

Left wing hype?

 

[Streathamite]

Correct me if Im wrong but at one point we were the 4th largest coal exporter in the world. And the majority of the mines were actually making a profit no?

yup, and there is STILL 50 years full-mining capacity left down there

 

[DotCommunist]

Correct me if Im wrong but at one point we were the 4th largest coal exporter in the world. And the majority of the mines were actually making a profit no?

the destruction of mining was 100% ideological and anyone who claims otherwise is a fool or a liar.

 

[Edie]

They were. The mines making a loss thing is an old tory lie.

Well either they were or they weren't. Surely there's some kind of independent economic analysis that could answer that.

And why the fuck would the tories close down a profitable industry? What's the explanation for that?

 

[dennisr]

Fucking thick us working class people arent we.

just a thick fuck in your case "love"

 

[Streathamite]

Fucking thick us working class people arent we.

no I'm not, actually, and neither is my dad, and nor were my grandad and great-uncles ('umble proles one an' all).
You, on the other hand, and on the evidence of this thread, certainly are, regardless of class.
And who on earth brought class into it?

 

[dennisr]

you don't know shit about me

so why are you so predictable then?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Well either they were or they weren't. Surely there's some kind of independent economic analysis that could answer that.

And why the fuck would the tories close down a profitable industry? What's the explanation for that?

Kin hell.

Because Thatcher wanted to strip away the last vestiges of social-democracy, push through a series of neo-liberal 'reforms' and crush the organised working class. You know, Thatcherism. Hence the name. The same reason she flogged off such unprofitable burdens as BP, BT and BA...

 

[ViolentPanda]

No your wrong actually. I think you should have a bloody good crack at getting a job using your skills. But not forever obviously. If the work aint there it just aint there.

Tell me about the miners. Cos my husband's family moved up to the north east. And FiL says shit like 'What happened to the miners was terrible, but at the end of the day you cannot keep running mines at a loss to keep people in work'. What would you say to that (other than my FiL is an evil tory cocking cunt etc etc).

I'd tell your father-in-law that if he knew what he was talking about, then he'd know that British Coal balanced it's accounts and made profits more often than not, and that some of the "loss-making" mines were kept open purely because the coal (usually anthracite) that they yielded was used by that other great nationalised industry: British Steel.
I'd also tell him to take a look at the closures between 1969 and 1984. 300+ uneconomical pits closed down. The stories that Scargill fought to keep truly uncompetitive mines open is a myth. What he did fight for was for miners whose colliery was being closed to be redeployed if that's what they wanted, rather than just being made redundant.

All this stuff is a matter of historical record, Edie. Available to be read by anyone who can be arsed to look beyond political rhetoric.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Correct me if Im wrong but at one point we were the 4th largest coal exporter in the world. And the majority of the mines were actually making a profit no?

At one point, yes, and in the late 1960s through to the strike in '84, they were the most productive too.
The economics of coal were always screwed, even pre-nationalisation. Extractive industries are always at the whim of the commodities market and any economic vagaries, so profit and loss weren't always tied to production.

 

[Edie]

I'd tell your father-in-law that if he knew what he was talking about, then he'd know that British Coal balanced it's accounts and made profits more often than not, and that some of the "loss-making" mines were kept open purely because the coal (usually anthracite) that they yielded was used by that other great nationalised industry: British Steel.
I'd also tell him to take a look at the closures between 1969 and 1984. 300+ uneconomical pits closed down. The stories that Scargill fought to keep truly uncompetitive mines open is a myth. What he did fight for was for miners whose colliery was being closed to be redeployed if that's what they wanted, rather than just being made redundant.

All this stuff is a matter of historical record, Edie. Available to be read by anyone who can be arsed to look beyond political rhetoric.

I'll tell him. He thinks I'm a leftie anyway.