Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[friedaweed]

Whale objects to crews diet of vegetarian pizza resulting in sinking of 44ft luxury yacht.

Sailing crew rescued after giant whale sank 44ft boat in Pacific Ocean

Whale collided with sailboat 13 days into group’s three-week sailing trip from Galápagos Islands to French Polynesia

www.theguardian.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2023/03/20/sailboat-hits-whale-pacific-rescue/

Nice boat.

 

[butcher]

I've heard of people eating road kill but that would be a stretch. What makes you think that's for human consumption?

Now then you used "think" there. Try knee jerk reaction

 

[friedaweed]

Now then you used "think" there. Try knee jerk reaction

It must be a bit of a ball-ache looking at foreign webpages all day looking for something veggie and edgy and controversial to post on this thread too.

Tofu car number plates nicked in Maine, Sink Steaks in TicTok land and now a wagon crash in Eindhoven.

One minute there's global exploding meat demand and the next minute there's positive tales of people reducing their meat consumption. It's hard to keep up with what the cressflakes actually think is going on what with all this conflicting cut and pasting they bomb the thread with.

Has anyone mentioned buying less and improving animal husbandry and farming practices as a way to change things?

 

[editor]

It must be a bit of a ball-ache looking at foreign webpages all day looking for something veggie and edgy and controversial to post on this thread too.

Tofu car number plates nicked in Maine, Sink Steaks in TicTok land and now a wagon crash in Eindhoven.

One minute there's global exploding meat demand and the next minute there's positive tales of people reducing their meat consumption. It's hard to keep up with what the cressflakes actually think it going on what with all this conflicting cut and pasting they bomb the thread with.

Has anyone mentioned buying less and improving animal husbandry and farming practices as a way to change things?

Meat consumption across the global is up massively.
Good luck with 'improving animal husbandry' in the face of more and more factory farms and an increasingly barbaric, industrial meat industry in some regions.

Meat and Dairy Production

Meat is an important source of nutrition for people around the world. How quickly is demand growing? And what are the implications for animal welfare and the earth’s environment?

ourworldindata.org

• The world now produces more than three times the quantity of meat as it did fifty years ago. In 2018, production was around 340 million tonnes.
• Pigmeat is the most popular meat globally, but the production of poultry is increasing most rapidly.
• 80 billion animals are slaughtered each year for meat.
• The average person in the world consumed around 43 kilograms of meat in 2014. This ranges from over 100kg in the US and Australia to only 5kg in India.
• Meat consumption increases as the world is getting richer.
• The world now produces around 800 million tonnes of milk each year – more than double the amount fifty years ago.
• Richer countries tend to consume more milk per person.
• The amount of meat produced for a given animal varies significantly across the world based on production systems.
• Livestock production has large environmental impacts on greenhouse gas emissions, land and water use. Beef and lamb have much larger environmental impact than pigmeat and poultry

 

[friedaweed]

Meat consumption across the global is up massively.

You've just posted that the forecast for a reduction in German and British meat consumption has made your skinny jeans go proud. Make your friggin mind up.

There's plenty of people eating less, better meat but it doesn't suit your 'No meat' agenda. Tell the rest of the world to eat less meat instead of people who are more locally already doing it who also happen to engage with this thread that you keep carpet bombing, as above. Better still engage with those posters on the thread a bit more old ranty pants

 

[editor]

You've just posted that the forecast for a reduction in German and British meat consumption has made your skinny jeans go proud. Make your friggin mind up.

I'm so sorry you can't tell the difference between global trends and regional ones, but it's really not that hard a concept to get your head around. In some countries significant numbers of people - usually dominated by young people - are either giving up meat altogether or cutting back significantly.

Like all people should.

 

[bcuster]

I eat loads of lentils and dried beans. Perfect in a classic French Cassoulet.

lentils and barley are a great combination. i have them with a vegetable, with some bread, for lunch quite a bit.

 

[bcuster]

I'm so sorry you can't tell the difference between global trends and regional ones, but it's really not that hard a concept to get your head around. In some countries significant numbers of people - usually dominated by young people - are either giving up meat altogether or cutting back significantly.

Like all people should.

Amen.

 

[friedaweed]

I'm so sorry you can't tell the difference between global trends and regional ones, but it's really not that hard a concept to get your head around. In some countries significant numbers of people - usually dominated by young people - are either giving up meat altogether or cutting back significantly.

Like all people should.

 

[friedaweed]

lentils and barley are a great combination. i have them with a vegetable, with some bread, for lunch quite a bit.

Sounds really exciting

 

[Cat Fan]

Sounds really exciting

It may be hard for you to believe, but when done properly vegetable based dishes are much more exciting than meat and potatoes.

I switched to being fully vegetarian 5 years ago and ever since I've been feeling great, better than ever.

It's no secret that vegetarians/vegans are healthier and live longer on average.

 

[friedaweed]

It may be hard for you to believe, but when done properly vegetable based dishes are much more exciting than meat and potatoes.

I switched to being fully vegetarian 5 years ago and ever since I've been feeling great, better than ever.

It's no secret that vegetarians/vegans are healthier and live longer on average.

It may be hard for you to believe but I lived with a vegetarian partner for 14 years and did most of the 'exciting' cooking.
I switched from buying meat from places where I had no idea of its origin (Mainly supermarkets) over 10 years ago and ever since I've eaten less better quality meat from butchers who know their meat.
It's no secret that a lot of vegetarians, and even more vegans, come across like holier than thou ex smokers and tend to sound a bit whiny and self congratulatory.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's no secret that vegetarians/vegans are healthier and live longer on average.

Men who shave every day live longer on average than men who don't shave every day. But despite what this ridiculous article says, shaving every day is not an important thing for a man to do to stay healthy. No, there probably isn't some beneficial hormonal effect to daily shaving. Yes, personal grooming habits will reflect, on average, more general habits when taking care of yourself that do mean you're going to be healthier.

Men who don't shave have less sex, more strokes › News in Science (ABC Science)

So here, a person who pays close attention to the ethics of their diet is also more likely to be paying closer attention to nutrition and to their health generally. It's a very tricky correlation to tease out. Vegetarians are less likely to be smokers than non-vegetarians, for example. This factor alone explains a substantial chunk of the longer lives of vegetarians.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...d-reference-population-by-gender_fig1_7430474

 

[Cat Fan]

It may be hard for you to believe but I lived with a vegetarian partner for 14 years and did most of the 'exciting' cooking.
I switched from buying meat from places where I had no idea of its origin (Mainly supermarkets) over 10 years ago and ever since I've eaten less better quality meat from butchers who know their meat.
It's no secret that a lot of vegetarians, and even more vegans, come across like holier than thou ex smokers and tend to sound a bit whiny and self congratulatory.

Ok, well done for eating less and better quality meat. There are some really good recipes out there, it just requires a shift in mindset. Fresh ingredients and using lots of spices will help.

The texture of meat is the hardest thing to replicate, but grilled halloumi/aubergine is one option, or the many vegan "meat alternatives" although they're pretty processed to be fair.

 

[Cat Fan]

Men who shave every day live longer on average than men who don't shave every day. But despite what this ridiculous article says, shaving every day is not an important thing for a man to do to stay healthy. No, there probably isn't some beneficial hormonal effect to daily shaving. Yes, personal grooming habits will reflect, on average, more general habits when taking care of yourself that do mean you're going to be healthier.

Men who don't shave have less sex, more strokes › News in Science (ABC Science)

So here, a person who pays close attention to the ethics of their diet is also more likely to be paying closer attention to nutrition and to their health generally. It's a very tricky correlation to tease out. Vegetarians are less likely to be smokers than non-vegetarians, for example. This factor alone explains a substantial chunk of the longer lives of vegetarians.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...d-reference-population-by-gender_fig1_7430474

I'm sure the overwhelming weight of evidence that meat (and processed meat in particular) increases the risk of certain types of cancer can be explained away as well.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm sure the overwhelming weight of evidence that meat (and processed meat in particular) increases the risk of certain types of cancer can be explained away as well.

The evidence is that certain kinds of processed meat increase risk for certain types of cancer. To frame that as 'meat generally and processed meat in particular' isn't accurate.

It is of course possible to have a healthy vegan/vegetarian diet. But it's also possible to have a healthy diet that includes meat. Just 'give up meat and be healthier' isn't an accurate portrayal of the situation. 'Don't eat loads of bacon' is a good idea, though.

 

[editor]

Instead of ignorantly rolling your eyes, educate yourself

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2019/08/4.-SPM_Approved_Microsite_FINAL.pdf

 

[friedaweed]

Instead of ignorantly rolling your eyes, educate yourself

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2019/08/4.-SPM_Approved_Microsite_FINAL.pdf

That's actually the same response you gave me the last time I took the time to explain my position to you in good faith.

I bet you've not read the first page ranty pants

 

[friedaweed]

Ok, well done for eating less and better quality meat. There are some really good recipes out there, it just requires a shift in mindset. Fresh ingredients and using lots of spices will help.

The texture of meat is the hardest thing to replicate, but grilled halloumi/aubergine is one option, or the many vegan "meat alternatives" although they're pretty processed to be fair.

I've been cooking for myself since I left home at 16 why would I need a shift in my mindset? I use fresh ingredients and spices all the time. Cooking is one of my real personal passions.

If I'm going to cook a vegetarian dish why the fuck would I want or need to replicate the texture of meat?

This is the thing that makes me chuckle about evangelical veggies. It's like they believe they've had some sort of epiphany and everyone else must be living like a caveman

 

[kabbes]

The evidence is that certain kinds of processed meat increase risk for certain types of cancer. To frame that as 'meat generally and processed meat in particular' isn't accurate.

It is of course possible to have a healthy vegan/vegetarian diet. But it's also possible to have a healthy diet that includes meat. Just 'give up meat and be healthier' isn't an accurate portrayal of the situation. 'Don't eat loads of bacon' is a good idea, though.

Also, even if you can establish a link, it’s meaningless without understanding the effect size. People undertake activities every day that have very marginal increases in their mortality risk, because they feel that their life is enhanced by that activity. If my risk of colon cancer goes from 0.0001 to 0.000101 (no idea of actual numbers, it’s just an example) then, to be perfectly frank, I don’t care. That’s a 1% increase in relative terms, but in absolute terms it’s meaningless.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Also, even if you can establish a link, it’s meaningless without understanding the effect size. People undertake activities every day that have very marginal increases in their mortality risk, because they feel that their life is enhanced by that activity. If my risk of colon cancer goes from 0.0001 to 0.000101 (no idea of actual numbers, it’s just an example) then, to be perfectly frank, I don’t care. That’s a 1% increase in relative terms, but in absolute terms it’s meaningless.

Yep.

Another complicating factor is all the good stuff in meat, particularly ethically produced, fresh meat. Eaten in appropriate quantities, it provides a whole host of macro and micro nutrients. Context also matters. For a poor person in the global south, the occasional piece of meat (and it is likely to be occasional due to cost issues), even if it's processed meat that's linked to some cancers, is a fantastic one-stop source of nutrition. The answer to the question 'should they be eating less meat?' may very well be 'no, and probably a bit more would be good for them'. Much the same goes for dairy consumption, particularly by growing children.

It's a bit like the debate on farming. In farming, you need to look at whole systems. In nutrition, you need to look at whole diets.

Much of this debate seems to centre around the poor diets of people in places like the USA, comparing those to the alternatives, and extrapolating from that to make highly suspect generalisations.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Yep.

Another complicating factor is all the good stuff in meat, particularly ethically produced, fresh meat. Eaten in appropriate quantities, it provides a whole host of macro and micro nutrients. Context also matters. For a poor person in the global south, the occasional piece of meat (and it is likely to be occasional due to cost issues), even if it's processed meat that's linked to some cancers, is a fantastic one-stop source of nutrition. The answer to the question 'should they be eating less meat?' may very well be 'no, and probably a bit more would be good for them'. Much the same goes for dairy consumption, particularly by growing children.

It's a bit like the debate on farming. In farming, you need to look at whole systems. In nutrition, you need to look at whole diets.

Much of this debate seems to centre around the poor diets of people in places like the USA, comparing those to the alternatives, and extrapolating from that to make highly suspect generalisations.

Farming is an interesting one as without any meat or dairy protection you need a whole lot of "ghost acres" to grow fertilisers. Or use a lot of chemicals.

 

[Cat Fan]

Also, even if you can establish a link, it’s meaningless without understanding the effect size. People undertake activities every day that have very marginal increases in their mortality risk, because they feel that their life is enhanced by that activity. If my risk of colon cancer goes from 0.0001 to 0.000101 (no idea of actual numbers, it’s just an example) then, to be perfectly frank, I don’t care. That’s a 1% increase in relative terms, but in absolute terms it’s meaningless.

Cancer is the leading cause of death, so any increase in risk should be thought about carefully, whether it is relative or absolute.

Lifetime risk of getting cancer is about 50%, is that high enough for you?

 

[editor]

That's actually the same response you gave me the last time I took the time to explain my position to you in good faith.

I bet you've not read the first page ranty pants

So this -> is you 'taking the time to explain your position to me in good faith.'

Yeah, right.

 

[Cat Fan]

I've been cooking for myself since I left home at 16 why would I need a shift in my mindset? I use fresh ingredients and spices all the time. Cooking is one of my real personal passions.

If I'm going to cook a vegetarian dish why the fuck would I want or need to replicate the texture of meat?

This is the thing that makes me chuckle about evangelical veggies. It's like they believe they've had some sort of epiphany and everyone else must be living like a caveman

You were complaining that vegetarian dishes are boring, I was simply pointing out that they don't have to be boring. I'm not going to judge you on your cooking skills. No worries.

 

[editor]

This is the thing that makes me chuckle about evangelical veggies. It's like they believe they've had some sort of epiphany and everyone else must be living like a caveman

And that's another mighty impressive strawman.

You really do seem unhealthily obsessed with 'evangelical', 'holier than thou,' 'whiny' and 'self congratulatory' veggies. Is insulting people your coping mechanism?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Farming is an interesting one as without any meat or dairy protection you need a whole lot of "ghost acres" to grow fertilisers. Or use a lot of chemicals.

AFAIC the wrong questions are being posed much of the time. I'm more interested in questions to do with how you promote biodiversity, how you build healthy soils, how you reduce fossil fuel dependence, how you make farming systems that are both resilient and sustainable, how you improve the conditions of farmed animals, and how you keep all this affordable for the 8 billion people we need to feed. One of the answers to all of these questions is that we need to move decisively away from monocultures of all kinds, and one of the best ways to do that, as has been mentioned several times on this thread, is to promote localism and the interests of small producers.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

AFAIC the wrong questions are being posed much of the time. I'm more interested in questions to do with how you promote biodiversity, how you build healthy soils, how you reduce fossil fuel dependence, how you make farming systems that are both resilient and sustainable, how you improve the conditions of farmed animals, and how you keep all this affordable for the 8 billion people we need to feed. One of the answers to all of these questions is that we need to move decisively away from monocultures of all kinds, and one of the best ways to do that, as has been mentioned several times on this thread, is to promote localism and the interests of small producers.

Agree. But you still need fertility. Eating less high quality meat is a great way to get this.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Agree. But you still need fertility. Eating less high quality meat is a great way to get this.

If your starting point is eating large amounts of poor quality meat, then yes. But again, the question doesn't get framed like that. It gets framed as a demand that everyone should be cutting their meat consumption to save the planet, and wouldn't it be great if we all went vegan?

 

[bcuster]

There i so little to feel good about these days, if I (or anyone) can develop a sense of "self-congratulatory" satisfaction on having filled my stomach on bread, lentils & barley rather than on the flesh of a fellow creature, I'd be unconvinced that this, in and of itself, is not a good thing and something to be lauded, rather than mocked by eye rolling.