Brixton Playground scheme proposes permanent pedestrianisation of central Brixton

[editor]

Brixton Playground? FFS that's awful. Makes it sound like some Magaluf foam party - not exactly a vision of sophisticated north European street dining.


Although that bit is a nasty rat run and I've seen loads of near misses of pedestrians walking on Brixton Road from drivers turning into Ferndale. In theory pedestrians have priority on a side road but nearly all drivers ignore that rule


tough one that. It doesn't work as it is at the moment though. Pavements are too narrow, all jams solid as soon as any of the businesses has a delivery. Asking whether the priorities are right seems Ok but the knock on impacts look hard to solve. Given it jams up so easily it might not actually take that many vehicles so possible it wouldn't be as much of a problem as it intuitively seems.

I would be genuinely fearful walking down the eastern part of a pedestrianised Coldharbour Lane at night. We've had all sorts of shit going on recently - including a double shooting and multiple street fights - and if you take away passing traffic it's going to feel a lot more risky at night, especially for vulnerable people.

That said, I would LOVE it if the speed restrictions were rigorously enforced.

 

[editor]

An unimpressed Tweet

 

[teuchter]

The thing about streets without traffic not being safe at night when they don't have traffic needs to be debunked. Pretty sure there's no evidence of this, especially in areas where there is a reasonable amount of foot traffic because other pedestrians being out and about does have a benefit. Apart from anything else the danger of being hit by a vehicle is removed.

 

[Rushy]

The thing about streets without traffic not being safe at night when they don't have traffic needs to be debunked. Pretty sure there's no evidence of this, especially in areas where there is a reasonable amount of foot traffic because other pedestrians being out and about does have a benefit. Apart from anything else the danger of being hit by a vehicle is removed.

This was the argument successfully made against limiting Effra Road between Coldharbour and Saltoun to buses during the refurb of the square. I would love to see that looked at again, joining the Peace Gardens with Windrush Square Memorials Park.

 

[Gramsci]

BIDs are not about residents though. They're groups of traders seeking to increase dwell and footfall out of self-interest, as more punters staying longer means more income.

Not making excuses for them, by the way, just acknowledging that they're a pressure group, rather than an organisation with a community focus or a holistic worldview. My expectations of them are very low.

The BID idea came from USA . It was introduced here by New Labour. The Labour run Council are keen on the Brixton BID.

Its not a pressure group. All business rate payers in the area are on it. From police , Big chains on Brixton road to the small shops.

The levy it gets from business mean its well funded with own staff. Its not a voluntary organisation. Each business has to pay levy even if they don't want to be part of the BID. Only business that don't are those with low income.

I find it an ambiguous set up. A non voluntary organisation that covers all business. With a remit to improve the area.

Take the Nour campaign. Brixton BID kept out of that. The BID represent big business and small business. But as is obvious different business interests are in conflict with each other.

The way the relationship with the Council is set up the BID has a lot of influence. Its a quango with local Cllrs on its board.

Imo the idea of BIDs is flawed. In an area like Brixton with large residential population having a BID means that it has much influence over the development of the public realm. Even if the Council has the final say.

I'm wondering how much the Cllrs on the Board of Brixton BID knew about the Brixton Playground idea. They .must have agreed with it being floated as idea .

 

[thebackrow]

The thing about streets without traffic not being safe at night when they don't have traffic needs to be debunked. Pretty sure there's no evidence of this, especially in areas where there is a reasonable amount of foot traffic because other pedestrians being out and about does have a benefit. Apart from anything else the danger of being hit by a vehicle is removed.

Yes, it always comes up but I think it's a complete fantasy that passing traffic stops crime. the idea that someone driving down CHL is paying enough attention to spot a street robbery going on and then is going to screech to a halt and jump out of their car to chase off the attackers is just fantasy.

One of the things that has always made Brixton feel safe to me is the amount of people on foot - pretty much any time except 6-10am on a Sunday (and that's only since 414 closed). I've been in parts of the east end that felt properly deserted and uncomfortable late at night.

 

[editor]

This was the argument successfully made against limiting Effra Road between Coldharbour and Saltoun to buses during the refurb of the square. I would love to see that looked at again, joining the Peace Gardens with Windrush Square Memorials Park.

I'm not saying that pedestrianising streets automatically causes an upswing in crime - not at all - but if anyone has the slightest clue about the situation around the Barrier Block late at night, they would know that it could be very problematic.

Apart from the drunk twats who party/fight there half the night, the street can be very quiet and I already know several women who regularly get a load of shit when they walk by at night, or get followed by men hassling them. There's been quite a few times where I've felt uncomfortable walking by after a gig and I'd feel even more unsafe if they were the only people around.

I could be wrong, but if I feel that way - and I'm a confident kind of bloke - I'm sure others must feel the same too. The people I've spoken to in my bloke certainly said the same.

 

[editor]

Yes, it always comes up but I think it's a complete fantasy that passing traffic stops crime. the idea that someone driving down CHL is paying enough attention to spot a street robbery going on and then is going to screech to a halt and jump out of their car to chase off the attackers is just fantasy.

One of the things that has always made Brixton feel safe to me is the amount of people on foot - pretty much any time except 6-10am on a Sunday (and that's only since 414 closed). I've been in parts of the east end that felt properly deserted and uncomfortable late at night.

I'd agree with you about Coldharbour Lane by the 414. But it's very different further down and is often completely deserted. I've often gone out to meet people coming to my flat at night because of that.

 

[thebackrow]

I find it an ambiguous set up. A non voluntary organisation that covers all business. With a remit to improve the area.
Take the Nour campaign. Brixton BID kept out of that. The BID represent big business and small business. But as is obvious different business interests are in conflict with each other.
Imo the idea of BIDs is flawed.

I don't know that much about how they operate but what would you have instead? Having some sort of organisation to represent the interests of business seems no different to having a residents association - and seems like a good idea. Business Improvement Districts suggests that businesses are balloted as to whether to set one up and again every 5 years to see if they want to keep it operating.

There is the difficult question of a levy on businesses that didn't vote in favour but how do you prevent a free rider problem without that?

On Nour I've no idea. I'd really hope that they were putting pressure on behind the scenes - putting your name behind a public campaign isn't the only way to influence.

 

[Gramsci]

The document about the Brixton Playground has pictures of how it would look.

I notice all the tables/ chairs etc look to me like they are connected to the bars and restaurants.

The question I would put is will this seating be available for all? Whether they are eating and drinking with food / drink bought at the places or not?

Looks to me like the seating areas will take up a lot of the pedestrianised space.

 

[thebackrow]

I'd agree with you about Coldharbour Lane by the 414. But it's very different further down and is often completely deserted. I've often gone out to meet people coming to my flat at night because of that.

Agree - not all spaces are the same. What works well is when a street is overlooked - it's rare that walking down a street of victorian houses feels unsafe because there is the possiblity of many sets of eyes that could be watching you. Parks, tunnels under railways, back alleyways are a bit different - the park outside the barrier block, and the 'barrier' side of it in particular (designed with few windows as it was meant to face an urban motorway remember), some poorly lit walkways isn't great. I'm not sure that Effra Road/Windrush would be either

 

[teuchter]

From what I remember, from the last time I looked at this, the problem was all to do with perception of risk rather than actual risk - ie some people feel more at risk on a street without traffic but actually they aren't. And an effective way to deal with that perception is through things like better street lighting.

On the other hand there's quite a lot of evidence that as a pedestrian you're at more risk of being injured by a vehicle at night than you are in the day.

 

[Jimbeau]

I don't know that much about how they operate but what would you have instead? Having some sort of organisation to represent the interests of business seems no different to having a residents association - and seems like a good idea. Business Improvement Districts suggests that businesses are balloted as to whether to set one up and again every 5 years to see if they want to keep it operating.

There is the difficult question of a levy on businesses that didn't vote in favour but how do you prevent a free rider problem without that?

On Nour I've no idea. I'd really hope that they were putting pressure on behind the scenes - putting your name behind a public campaign isn't the only way to influence.

I think the existence of a business organisation is fine in itself, but the mandatory levy that all businesses must pay whether or not they vote a BID into existence makes them different from a pure membership-driven organisation.

Then there is the quasi-official status they gain through association with the local authority, and the roving brief that gives them disproportionate influence over things outside their direct mandate. I used the term 'pressure group' advisedly to refer to situations such as traffic management - since that's all they really are on matters not purely business-related. And it seems to me that compared to residents' associations, they are established in such a way that they have comparatively more pressure to apply.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't know that much about how they operate but what would you have instead? Having some sort of organisation to represent the interests of business seems no different to having a residents association - and seems like a good idea. Business Improvement Districts suggests that businesses are balloted as to whether to set one up and again every 5 years to see if they want to keep it operating.

There is the difficult question of a levy on businesses that didn't vote in favour but how do you prevent a free rider problem without that?

On Nour I've no idea. I'd really hope that they were putting pressure on behind the scenes - putting your name behind a public campaign isn't the only way to influence.

So you don't know much about it.

I was explaining that its not a voluntary pressure group.

Its not comparable to a residents group.

The reason I mentioned Nour is that the set up of a BID means that it cannot interfere in disputes between different business interests.

 

[editor]

I don't know that much about how they operate but what would you have instead? Having some sort of organisation to represent the interests of business seems no different to having a residents association - and seems like a good idea. Business Improvement Districts suggests that businesses are balloted as to whether to set one up and again every 5 years to see if they want to keep it operating.

There is the difficult question of a levy on businesses that didn't vote in favour but how do you prevent a free rider problem without that?

On Nour I've no idea. I'd really hope that they were putting pressure on behind the scenes - putting your name behind a public campaign isn't the only way to influence.

You'd think that an organisation set up - and financed - with the sole aim of promoting local businesses would have, for example, compiled a comprehensive list of all the cash-strapped pubs and bars reopening in the area this weekend to try and encourage customers back in. But they haven't.

 

[Rushy]

I'm not saying that pedestrianising streets automatically causes an upswing in crime - not at all - but if anyone has the slightest clue about the situation around the Barrier Block late at night, they would know that it could be very problematic.

Apart from the drunk twats who party/fight there half the night, the street can be very quiet and I already know several women who regularly get a load of shit when they walk by at night, or get followed by men hassling them. There's been quite a few times where I've felt uncomfortable walking by after a gig and I'd feel even more unsafe if they were the only people around.

I could be wrong, but if I feel that way - and I'm a confident kind of bloke - I'm sure others must feel the same too. The people I've spoken to in my bloke certainly said the same.

I agree that it's not a nice stretch. Not sure whether having passing traffic is the answer but definitely understand why it would feel that way. Also, if there were not traffic, the ASB would spread out into the main throughfare.

 

[editor]

Agree - not all spaces are the same. What works well is when a street is overlooked - it's rare that walking down a street of victorian houses feels unsafe because there is the possiblity of many sets of eyes that could be watching you. Parks, tunnels under railways, back alleyways are a bit different - the park outside the barrier block, and the 'barrier' side of it in particular (designed with few windows as it was meant to face an urban motorway remember), some poorly lit walkways isn't great. I'm not sure that Effra Road/Windrush would be either

I think the stretch around the Barrier Block has a rather unique set of problems, particularly with street drinking, fighting, anti social behaviour and sadly, shootings, stabbings and gang related crime. There's almost always 2 or 3 incidents every week, usually at night.

My opinion is that any environmental advantages of removing traffic along this particular stretch would be cancelled out and would lead to - at the very least - a perception of people feeling more vulnerable at night.

 

[Rushy]

I don't know that much about how they operate but what would you have instead? Having some sort of organisation to represent the interests of business seems no different to having a residents association.

I would disagree. In principle I don't have a problem with a group which is designed to promote the interests of business. But business interests come into a lot of close conflict with resident interests - particularly when you are focusing on night time economy. BID is well funded and pays for permanent professional staff to focus all day long on promoting their interests and liaising with the council. Their income in guaranteed and collected by the council. If there were equivalent types of residents' groups then it would be an equal playing field. But as it is it skews influence heavily into the hands of the businesses.

 

[Rushy]

the park outside the barrier block, and the 'barrier' side of it in particular (designed with few windows as it was meant to face an urban motorway remember), some poorly lit walkways isn't great.

And yet it sometimes seems to be one of the most overlooked places in South London. It's rather well documented ...

 

[Rushy]

Oh dear. Reading through the comments in the Buzz article, I am apparently the Katie Hopkins of Urban75 . I wasn't expecting to be called that today .

 

[cuppa tee]

Oh dear. Reading through the comments in the Buzz article, I am apparently the Katie Hopkins of Urban75 . I wasn't expecting to be called that today .

clarkson maybe ?

 

[teuchter]

clarkson maybe ?

Ken?

 

[editor]

Oh dear. Reading through the comments in the Buzz article, I am apparently the Katie Hopkins of Urban75 . I wasn't expecting to be called that today .

That was great!

Apart from that, there's some interesting comments in there though.

 

[cuppa tee]

Ken?

 

[Gramsci]

I would disagree. In principle I don't have a problem with a group which is designed to promote the interests of business. But business interests come into a lot of close conflict with resident interests - particularly when you are focusing on night time economy. BID is well funded and pays for permanent professional staff to focus all day long on promoting their interests and liaising with the council. Their income in guaranteed and collected by the council. If there were equivalent types of residents' groups then it would be an equal playing field. But as it is it skews influence heavily into the hands of the businesses.

I agree. To add to this the BID idea was first promoted by Tony Blair. So of course the New Labour Council pushed the idea in Lambeth. It was not business asking for BIDs. It was promoted and encouraged by New Labour Council.

In practise its an extension of the New Labour One party state that is Lambeth.

As came up here at election time The director of Brixton BID Michael Smith was quoted on local Labour party leaflets telling people to vote Labour. Which imo shows the unhealthy relationship between Lambeth BIDs and the New Labour Council . BIDs are suppose to be politically neutral. In Lambeth that is not the case.

Plus for senior officers it makes life easier. The Brixton BID has paid staff. Its not corruption. Its just easier getting in touch with them and having meetings on Brixton.

Everyone one is a winner. The police get extra funding from the BID for two cops. The Council have a paid for organisation that has funding to work on ideas like pedestrianisation of central Brixton.

Given this , like you, I dont understand why the Council didnt extend the Railton Scheme to close traffic to Atlantic road from Dogstar to Brixton road. Except for buses and cycles.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I was just messing about with a map in photoshop thinking about main through routes and commercially orientated (as a start) pedestrianisation and atlantic road between coldharbour and brixton road does seem to be a obvious choice.

 

[Gramsci]

Before the Brixton BID idea under Steve Reed Town Centre managers were set up.

Each area in Lambeth had a Town Centre Manager. They had small staff and organised meetings of residents and business.

It was part of the Coop Council idea. Quite a big thing at the time and well attended.

It was gradually cut. But kept going.

I was in the Brixton one. We had regular meetings with Town centre manager along with local business.

I remember when the Councl decided to demolish the car park ( now Pop). Residents groups supported local business to oppose this.

We presented united front to Council at the local meetings with Town Centre Manager.

Telling her we all opposed the loss of the car park.

Guess what. After that the meetings ended. Quietly cut. We the residents groups and local business were using the local consultation group set up by Council to oppose Council decision. So we were pushed away.

 

[Gramsci]

I remember when the big crane was in CHL. For short while market section of CHL was car free. Local residents liked it.

Its possibly something that could get local public support.

But not just so business can take over large swathes of public realm for profit.

 

[Gramsci]

Unlike LJ I think iin CHL there could be support for reducing through traffic. Keep buses.

Brixton BID/ Squires/ The bar owners have managed to piss off everyone with this proposal.

 

[editor]

I remember when the big crane was in CHL. For short while market section of CHL was car free. Local residents liked it.

Its possibly something that could get local public support.

But not just so business can take over large swathes of public realm for profit.

I think the stretch of CHL from Atlantic Road to Brixton Road is an obvious candidate to be pedestrianised, but I don't see the point of extending it any further east, as once you're past the Village/Laundry there's no commercial activity until you get to Valentia Place, and then that's only a small strip of semi-gentrified shops.

Even though I'd like to see some kind of pedestrianisation, realistically that smaller stretch would turn into a mini Magaluf on weekends - that part of Coldharbour Lane is already a boozer’s paradise and messy as fuck at weekends.

On just a short 250m strip, there's Brewdog, Prince of Wales, Satay Bar, Friends Of Mine, Market House, Prince Albert, Three Little Birds, 384 cocktail bar, Rum Kitchen, Chip Shop, Ritzy, Whiskey Tumbler and the Dogstar - with a 414 replacement probably coming next year. I'm struggling to think of many other non-central areas with that concentration of bars per metre!