Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[Ol Nick]

The plethora of delivery firms is clearly part of the problem. Instead I propose a system where all non-local deliveries are made to a local "office", and from there local delivery people can complete the delivery mostly on foot or on bike.

I even have a name for this radical system: "The Republican Mail"

 

[teuchter]

Here's councillor Timothy Briggs collecting his anecdata:

 

[Rushy]

Very definitely not what I have observed in London in the past few weeks.

Yes, not everyone with a car is rich, and yes the rich are more likely to be working from home in the leafy suburbs. But the rich in the leafy suburbs are not going to be getting on the train right now if they can drive instead. On the train are mainly people without that option.

Can you clarify how you have very definitely observed whatever it is that you have observed (or not observed)?

I know plenty of reasonably wealthy types who are travelling to work at least a couple of days a week by train. Mostly more senior folk. I cannot think of a single one commuting by car in London (although I see a handful parking for the Town Hall). I know one who uses a motorbike - but always has. I don't consider my observation to be anything more than a tiny snapshot - certainly not enough to come to any definite picture. But enough to question the basis of your confident conclusion that "the rich" won't be getting on a train if they can drive instead. That seems to be at odds with my own admittedly limited personal observations.

The parts of my own work which have me driving are certainly not the higher value / higher grossing parts. Mostly just lugging heavy or bulky stuff about.

 

[teuchter]

My observations are based on various journeys on the overground, thameslink and southeast trains, some intersecting with rush hour, some at weekends, some within south London and some going out towards Kent.

What I've observed is that these trains are not the "preserve of the better off". Yup, that relies on me making some judgements based on things like what people are wearing, but I'm fairly confident they are not the "preserve of the better off".

I didn't say that there are no wealthy people commuting by train into central London. But is the car feasible for that? Not really. For the work-from-home wealthy, who own cars, in the leafy suburbs, I don't think they are doing things like going to the shops by train. I don't see much evidence of this on trains. I do see loads of streets clogged up with shiny Range Rovers, however, and that seems to be more true the further out you go.

 

[sparkybird]

Here's councillor Timothy Briggs collecting his anecdata:

View attachment 233455

teuchter do you know which FB that was posted in?

 

[teuchter]

teuchter do you know which FB that was posted in?

It's in the One Lambeth one.

 

[Southlondon]

Very definitely not what I have observed in London in the past few weeks.
Yes, not everyone with a car is rich, and yes the rich are more likely to be working from home in the leafy suburbs. But the rich in the leafy suburbs are not going to be getting on the train right now if they can drive instead. On the train are mainly people without that option.

And people who can’t afford the cost of train travel will drive if they can. It works out lots cheaper to drive if you live way out. Those traffic jams along the A2 every morning are not cars with rich people. People drive because public transport in this country is expensive, unreliable and uncomfortable. It’s not a viable option for lots of working class people who are being forced further and further away from London because of exorbitant housing costs. Have a look at season ticket costs they’re exorbitant. Other EU countries spend far more subsidising their railways than we do.

 

[teuchter]

And people who can’t afford the cost of train travel will drive if they can. It works out lots cheaper to drive if you live way out. Those traffic jams along the A2 every morning are not cars with rich people. People drive because public transport in this country is expensive, unreliable and uncomfortable. It’s not a viable option for lots of working class people who are being forced further and further away from London because of exorbitant housing costs. Have a look at season ticket costs they’re exorbitant. Other EU countries spend far more subsidising their railways than we do.

What are we talking about now - people living within the LTNs, who are saying they "want their roads back" - which is what this exchange started with?
The cost of an annual Z1-4 travelcard is not more than the minimum cost of owning a car (even before you start paying the marginal costs per journey).

If we are talking about people living further out, in Kent and so on, that's a bit of a different discussion. Are you talking about people living in, say Dartford?

The reasons public transport is not subsidised as much in this country as others, is tied up with the fact that we have built a car-dependent population. London however is something as an exception to this. London is fairly much the only place in the UK where you can live without a car, and not really be disadvantaged. The LTNs are part of a wider picture about making sure that stays the case, and reducing disadvantage further. If you want public transport to be supported and funded properly, you need an electorate who uses it. This is what exists in London but not really elsewhere.

And by the way this is what makes all the comments on the anti-LTN groups saying "if you don't like cars move out of London" so stupid.

 

[Torpid Scorpion]

I wasnt saying that only the rich drive. Of course thats nonsense. I was saying that rich drivers are who is retaining solicitors to try for a judicial review.

100% we should as a nation move to subsidise transport more. Its absurd how much a commuter ticket costs in London. Making ticket payers bear the cost of the system, as opposed to the companies that benefit from the labour of the commuters, and doing it in a deceitful way to make it look like its TFLs fault is typical of the current government and their ideological predecessors.

Fewer cars. More and cheaper public transport. Quieter and Safer roads. Simple technical solutions to give those with a legitimate need to drive that right. thats the way forward.

The ANTI groups have no way forward, and from what I have read on this very thread seem to spend their time saying unkind things about children on closed facebook groups that have tory councillors on them.

Shame.

 

[Not a Vet]

It's in the One Lambeth one.

Wow, did you get past the border guards or is there a mole?

 

[teuchter]

Wow, did you get past the border guards or is there a mole?

I think they are well aware that they are being watched - there are instructions to keep things civil and I think they remove some posts that aren't good for their PR. Probably the border guards only boot you out if you start arguing pro the LTNs.

 

[CH1]

Not everyone with a car is rich. The rich are more likely to be working from home in the leafy suburbs or travelling on rail which is now a preserve of the better off

Funnily enough I went by train from Denmark Hill to Nunhead Thursday last week at 6 pm. I was amazed how packed the train was.
Plenty of poor through to lower middle class people about at that time on the train.

 

[co-op]

There was one comment on your story and it talked about seeking compensation from Lambeth which is interesting as it was the same thing that was mentioned in the latest spats on Nextdoor. So I was wondering whether (it’s probably discussed on that closed Facebook group) there’s a change in tactics underway.

There's a chance that they'd get somewhere with a Judicial Review on the implementation since JRs are basically about whether public bodies have followed correct procedure and it looks like the LTNs have been fairly rushed into place, it depends whether the council have actually ticked the boxes on what emergency powers they were given.

But if they are asking for "compensation" that's just car driver tinfoil-hattery they ain't going to get any. I remember a bunch of dickhead car drivers getting together a group about 15 years ago to try and sue councils for introducing speed bumps on the basis that if they were put in place in 30mph streets, they would take away your "right" to drive at 30mph. Even a couple of seconds of thought should have made it obvious this was an idiotic no-win case but they got up money to get a QCs opinion, there's really not much limit to the idiocy of the hardcore car mentalists. I hope they lost a shedload of money on it and I have enough faith in the British legal system to trust that a good QC would make sure they did.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

The plethora of delivery firms is clearly part of the problem. Instead I propose a system where all non-local deliveries are made to a local "office", and from there local delivery people can complete the delivery mostly on foot or on bike.

I even have a name for this radical system: "The Republican Mail"

Which completely goes against the whole point in it.

If I have to go to a local pick up center to get something I may as well just go out and buy it. What am I going to do with a chest of draws? Carry it home?

That would drive people back to their cars

 

[teuchter]

Which completely goes against the whole point in it.

If I have to go to a local pick up center to get something I may as well just go out and buy it. What am I going to do with a chest of draws? Carry it home?

That would drive people back to their cars

The proposal is it all goes to the local office, and then it's delivered, by delivery people, from there on foot or bike where possible. Larger things you could do by van, but not everything would have to be by van. And maybe that stuff could be consolidated into one full van per day rather than several part-empty ones.

Personally I'm not sure that delivery vans are a big enough part of the problem to worry about so much. If I look at a typical traffic jam, most of it is not delivery vans.

 

[sparkybird]

Which completely goes against the whole point in it.

If I have to go to a local pick up center to get something I may as well just go out and buy it. What am I going to do with a chest of draws? Carry it home?

That would drive people back to their cars

I read it as small deliveries, like from Amazon etc. There are already places where you can collect your deliveries (like local shops or those yellow amazon lock boxes) and it makes much more sense for delivery drivers to drop a whole load of stuff here in their vans and then individuals walk to collect their orders - could be combined with walk to/from work, school or other shopping. This takes the delivery vehicles off the smaller streets and creates less stress for their drivers as they don't have to negotiate the new LTN's. I personally would welcome a massive expansion of this scheme.
For big items like a chest of drawers, then yes they would still come by delivery truck. Even though I have a car I doubt I'd use it to collect an item like this - especially as most likely it will be coming from some warehouse miles away and not a local furniture shop.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

These people are delivery people. A few months ago we were calling them heros for their work during the COVID. Not just posties but anyone bringing you items.

So the whole thing about avoiding unnecessary journeys is to force people to go out when out infection rates are higher than ever? That's not a delivery service that is a distribution service - that's a lot of jobs lost because a lot of stuff would go to the post office...which is already at breaking point (again). Took me 4 days to get a next-day item a week ago.

Add to that the fact you would have tens of thousand of people out there, queuing to get items at a time when our COVID numbers are up. If I had to collect something i'd just go and buy it in the shops.

 

[Rushy]

I read it as small deliveries, like from Amazon etc. There are already places where you can collect your deliveries (like local shops or those yellow amazon lock boxes) and it makes much more sense for delivery drivers to drop a whole load of stuff here in their vans and then individuals walk to collect their orders - could be combined with walk to/from work, school or other shopping. This takes the delivery vehicles off the smaller streets and creates less stress for their drivers as they don't have to negotiate the new LTN's. I personally would welcome a massive expansion of this scheme.
For big items like a chest of drawers, then yes they would still come by delivery truck. Even though I have a car I doubt I'd use it to collect an item like this - especially as most likely it will be coming from some warehouse miles away and not a local furniture shop.

The availability of these services seems to have decreased during COVID. I used to always arrange for items to be sent somewhere nearby, like Hamiltons, Argos or Halfords, as it meant not having to wait in. And Doddle before it closed down. It's rarely an option anymore.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

The availability of these services seems to have decreased during COVID. I used to always arrange for items to be sent somewhere nearby, like Hamiltons, Argos or Halfords, as it meant not having to wait in. And Doddle before it closed down. It's rarely an option anymore.

I never had one thing unavailable or late during COVID and i'm a shopaholic!

If anything these delivery services ramped us massively. The supermarkets, hermes, amazon, DPD, etc

The only thing I hadisue with was Royal mail, something (even guaranteed) took many days.

 

[Rushy]

I never had one thing unavailable and i'm a shopaholic!

If anything these delivery services ramped us massively. The supermarkets, hermes, amazon, DPD, etc

The only thing I hadisue with was Royal mail, something (even guaranteed) took many days.

I think you misunderstood my post. I'm referring to having deliveries dropped to a local hub for collection. I used to do this all the time because it meant not having to be home.
I agree deliveries to home are working fine. Well, some are better than others. Hermes is crap. DPD is great. My Royal Mail delivery chap always stops for a moan about the LTNs!

 

[Jeanette Moo]

I think you misunderstood my post. I'm referring to having deliveries dropped to a local hub for collection. I used to do this all the time because it meant not having to be home.
I agree deliveries to home are working fine. Well, some are better than others. Hermes is crap. DPD is great. My Royal Mail delivery chap always stops for a moan about the LTNs!

I was referring to your comment that the availability of these schemes decreased. The only services that had trouble initially was the supermarkets.

 

[Rushy]

I was referring to your comment that the availability of these schemes decreased. The only services that had trouble initially was the supermarkets.

Interesting. That's not been my experience. DPDs redirect option never seems to be available any more, for instance. I wasn't even aware that supermarkets acted as collection hubs, other than Sainsburys for Argos. Are we definitely talking about the same thing? Where do you get things dropped to?

 

[sleaterkinney]

from facebook
View attachment 233425

Lambeth were cutting back services before the pandemic because of cuts and here these selfish f**ks are engaging them in a costly legal action because they can't drive down a road or spend 10 extra minutes in traffic.

 

[sparkybird]

These people are delivery people. A few months ago we were calling them heros for their work during the COVID. Not just posties but anyone bringing you items.

So the whole thing about avoiding unnecessary journeys is to force people to go out when out infection rates are higher than ever? That's not a delivery service that is a distribution service - that's a lot of jobs lost because a lot of stuff would go to the post office...which is already at breaking point (again). Took me 4 days to get a next-day item a week ago.

Add to that the fact you would have tens of thousand of people out there, queuing to get items at a time when our COVID numbers are up. If I had to collect something i'd just go and buy it in the shops.

In my book they are still heros.

And as far as I am aware its still possible to get stuff delivered to your door if you are concerned about picking up from a shop or secure box. How much difference is there between collecting an item from a shop or going into a shop to buy it??
One day, this Covid lark will be over, but people will still be buying things on the internet for home delivery. I was just suggesting an alternative to door to door delivery, which might be better for traffic, delivery drivers and for me - I have to get up off my lazy arse and walk to the shop/box to pick it up.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

And as far as I am aware its still possible to get stuff delivered to your door if you are concerned about picking up from a shop or secure box. How much difference is there between collecting an item from a shop or going into a shop to buy it??
One day, this Covid lark will be over, but people will still be buying things on the internet for home delivery. I was just suggesting an alternative to door to door delivery, which might be better for traffic, delivery drivers and for me - I have to get up off my lazy arse and walk to the shop/box to pick it up.

Yes but the whole idea of getting something to a distribution center or pick up point defeats the purpose of delivery no?

Imagine all those parcels....suddenly needing people to go out and get them, in a huge queue.

i don't see the logic behind this the whole Amazon / door delivery service has done wonders for congestion. Probably removing far more cars than any other single service out there.

 

[teuchter]

Lambeth were cutting back services before the pandemic because of cuts and here these selfish f**ks are engaging them in a costly legal action because they can't drive down a road or spend 10 extra minutes in traffic.

It would be interesting to know what councillor Tim Briggs has to say about the use of Lambeth's resources for this. Presumably even if their case is rubbish, at a certain point Lambeth would have to divert staff time to dealing with it.

 

[Jesterburger]

Yes but the whole idea of getting something to a distribution center or pick up point defeats the purpose of delivery no?

Imagine all those parcels....suddenly needing people to go out and get them, in a huge queue.

i don't see the logic behind this the whole Amazon / door delivery service has done wonders for congestion. Probably removing far more cars than any other single service out there.

I've seen it said that the biggest cause of congestion in London is because of the huge extra numbers of both Ubers and of online delivery vans

Delivery vans and apps like Uber 'fuel rise in pollution in London' so I'm not sure online shopping is helping either traffic or our town centres

I think the point of central distrubution centres is to allow the 'last mile delivery' i.e. from big van to people's houses, can be more efficiently done by smaller electric vans, by electric cargo bikes and so on: Parcel groups seek to deliver greener ‘last mile’ processes

Waltham Forest council have started to trial efforts in this area and it would be great to see Lambeth follow suit at some point:

ZED – Zero Emission Deliveries - Enjoy Waltham Forest

In 2016, Waltham Forest Council was successful in securing funding from the Mayor’s Air Quality Fund to set up a zero emission delivery scheme in the borough, using cargo bikes and electric vehicles. Following a successful pilot ‘Christmas Courier’ which saw over 1,000 parcels delivered to local...

enjoywalthamforest.co.uk

 

[Southlondon]

Funnily enough I went by train from Denmark Hill to Nunhead Thursday last week at 6 pm. I was amazed how packed the train was.
Plenty of poor through to lower middle class people about at that time on the train.

Of course public transports a viable Means of transport for somewhere further out in the commuter belt like Medway. £6k for a season ticket. And who would travel in a packed train or tube if they had the option of driving a car during covid? But Until our public transport system is up to the mark many people who are forced economically to live further and further from their work will choose to own and drive cars. I haven’t yet met many people who have to drive through London during peak times who say it’s an enjoyable experience, they do it for a variety of reasons, but because they can’t see a more convenient or affordable alternative

 

[sparkybird]

Yes but the whole idea of getting something to a distribution center or pick up point defeats the purpose of delivery no?

Imagine all those parcels....suddenly needing people to go out and get them, in a huge queue.

i don't see the logic behind this the whole Amazon / door delivery service has done wonders for congestion. Probably removing far more cars than any other single service out there.

As I see it, the parcel IS delivered, but by choice the last 1/2 mile is on foot (my own!). More places for collection would spring up to meet demand and people would be collecting at all different times of day/evening to spread the load. Small shops are keen on this service as people who collect a delivery from them will often make a purchase as well - so potentially good for local shops.

In London I don't think the delivery vans have removed many cars - most people would have gone on foot/bus/tube to purchase what they now buy online.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

I've seen it said that the biggest cause of congestion in London is because of the huge extra numbers of both Ubers and of online delivery vans

Delivery vans and apps like Uber 'fuel rise in pollution in London' so I'm not sure online shopping is helping either traffic or our town centres

I think the point of central distrubution centres is to allow the 'last mile delivery' i.e. from big van to people's houses, can be more efficiently done by smaller electric vans, by electric cargo bikes and so on: Parcel groups seek to deliver greener ‘last mile’ processes

Waltham Forest council have started to trial efforts in this area and it would be great to see Lambeth follow suit at some point:

ZED – Zero Emission Deliveries - Enjoy Waltham Forest

In 2016, Waltham Forest Council was successful in securing funding from the Mayor’s Air Quality Fund to set up a zero emission delivery scheme in the borough, using cargo bikes and electric vehicles. Following a successful pilot ‘Christmas Courier’ which saw over 1,000 parcels delivered to local...

enjoywalthamforest.co.uk

I've seen it said that the biggest prcentage rise in vehicles IS ubers/delivery vans. But they formed a tiny portion of the overall stats so of course the there is going to be a big apparentl rise when a tiny percentage of vehicles increases in numbers

At the end of the day these vehicles help people get rid of their cars. Only need to go from A to B every do often? Uber. Want to buy something? Get it delivered.