Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[co-op]

Chuckling at the concern about air pollution from the car advocates on this thread, if that isn't a sign that this argument is about emotions not reason I don't know what is. If you care about air pollution, you get rid of cars first, simple as that.

 

[Not a Vet]

Still exhaust fume city in my street

View attachment 231662

You need an LTN which as you clearly work for Lambeth should be a breeze to get

 

[organicpanda]

Still exhaust fume city in my street

View attachment 231662

I've been watching this over the last few days, there is no morning rush hour traffic and then from about 10.30 it builds up to being like your photo till 7.00 and unusually the backup wasn't caused by cars/vans/lorries parked on double yellows, just seems to be too much traffic for the lights at Brixton Road

 

[teuchter]

I've been watching this over the last few days, there is no morning rush hour traffic and then from about 10.30 it builds up to being like your photo till 7.00 and unusually the backup wasn't caused by cars/vans/lorries parked on double yellows, just seems to be too much traffic for the lights at Brixton Road

I walked through around lunchtime today and there was no traffic backed up on that stretch at all.

 

[happyshopper]

I often walk and drive down Coldharbour Lane and there’s no doubt there are times when the traffic is bad. What I don’t understand is why it should be assumed it’s anything to do with LTNs. What journeys are there that someone, because of a LTN, now diverts to CL. There’s all sorts of other reasons why traffic is heavier.

 

[Crispy]

Atlantic Road being closed, for starters.

 

[Gramsci]

This looks to me like the Borough Wide Traffic order that I posted about up thread.

3. The bans, one-way systems and suspensions would only apply at such times and to such extent as
shall be indicated by the placing and covering of the appropriate traffic signs. They are necessary as
a result of an increase in pedestrian and cyclist traffic and movement on the roads affected. This is as
a result of the Council’s response to the Public Health restrictions on movement, exercise and social
distancing in connection to the Covid 19 pandemic.

4. The order would come into force on 30th May 2020 and would continue for a maximum duration of
18 months.

Dated 22nd May 2020

Andrew Burton
Assistant Director – Highways, Capital Programmes and Sustainability

If Im wrong can someone post up the correct info.

The Council paper I posted up ( post 2495) said that Borough wide transport order could be used to fastrack altering roads for social distancing etc without the usual consultation.

The Traffic order I have found by Lambeth specificially says any changes to roads are temporary. Justification being the pandemic.

Nothing in this order about LTNs. Though the provisions in the order would make it possible to introduce LTNs as the order allows road use alterations.

So if this is the right order then it is purely temporary and related to the pandemic. Its time limited.

I don't understand how this fits in with rolling out the LTNs across Lambeth.

From Council commonplace website they are proposed as moving to be permanent. But that is not what this Traffic Order is about.

Maybe Ive missed something but if this is the right Traffic Order its not enough to justify rolling out LTNs.

I do think Lambeth are using pandemic to roll out a project that they want without the usual consultation. If that is the case Im not happy.

Anyone who knows more about traffic orders? Is this the right one?

LONDON BOROUGH OF LAMBETH
ROAD TRAFFIC REGULATION ACT 1984 - SECTION 14
TEMPORARY TRAFFIC AND PARKING RESTRICTIONS FOR SAFE DISTANCING IN
CONNECTION WITH THE COVID 19 PANDEMIC RESTRICTIONS

 

[Gramsci]

I often walk and drive down Coldharbour Lane and there’s no doubt there are times when the traffic is bad. What I don’t understand is why it should be assumed it’s anything to do with LTNs. What journeys are there that someone, because of a LTN, now diverts to CL. There’s all sorts of other reasons why traffic is heavier.

Shakespeare road is closed.

The part of CHL that could be affect is from LJ to Brixton.

 

[Gramsci]

Same date as Borough wide traffic order one for the Oval Triangle.

Again its temporary and justified by pandemic.

At end of the report link to Oval LTN.

1. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that, the Council of the London Borough of Lambeth, with the
agreement of Transport for London, because of a likelihood of danger to the public have made an
order

3. The above mentioned bans will only apply at such times or to such extent as shall be indicated by
the placing of the appropriate traffic signs. They are necessary as a result of an increase in pedestrian
and cyclist traffic and movement on the roads affected. This is as a result of the Public Health
restrictions on movement, exercise and social distancing in connection to the Covid 19 pandemic. By
So again the justification is

Also say more cycling and pedestrian movement but no links to data to prove that.

 

[Gramsci]

I think I may have been at the same meeting? Was it an online one in August?

A resident spoke about Natural Justice. At first I thought it was the same bull as those Soverign citizens (?) but then he said it was the main reasons why councils carry out consultation (fairness, proper procedure) and also the main reason why lambeth pushed these through under emergency powers. He said you're "shooting first and asking the questions later".

No it wasn't. It was at meeting some time ago.

Supporter of one of the groups pushing for these LTNs etc said that Councils already had powers to introduce these alterations of roads. Without the usual consultation. As consultation held things up/ watered down schemes. So to avoid consultation Council should use its powers to as you put it shoot first and ask questions later.

It is clear to me that using these Emergency Traffic Orders is way to circumvent lengthy argumentative consultation.

I think reason this was not done before is at least some sections of Council would have thought that this was politically unacceptable way to do things.

For those who are pro LTN lobbying Council to just get on with it and ride roughshod over residents was one way forward.

 

[editor]

You need an LTN which as you clearly work for Lambeth should be a breeze to get

Absolutely. We have a wonderful working relationship based on trust and money. I'll get the LTN sorted by the morning.

PS Please don't tell anyone they're paying us, especially that bloke on Twitter as I think he's on to us.

 

[editor]

Chuckling at the concern about air pollution from the car advocates on this thread, if that isn't a sign that this argument is about emotions not reason I don't know what is. If you care about air pollution, you get rid of cars first, simple as that.

Do you mean me? I'm not chuckling when I'm having to breathe in shitloads more exhaust fumes on my street. But I'm not a 'car advocate' either. Pretty much hate the things. Apart from Morris Travellers, obvs.

 

[editor]

I often walk and drive down Coldharbour Lane and there’s no doubt there are times when the traffic is bad. What I don’t understand is why it should be assumed it’s anything to do with LTNs. What journeys are there that someone, because of a LTN, now diverts to CL. There’s all sorts of other reasons why traffic is heavier.

I think there's several things contributing to the increased traffic, and I wouldn't rule out the local LTNs as being contributory factors.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

This looks to me like the Borough Wide Traffic order that I posted about up thread.



If Im wrong can someone post up the correct info.

The Council paper I posted up ( post 2495) said that Borough wide transport order could be used to fastrack altering roads for social distancing etc without the usual consultation.

The Traffic order I have found by Lambeth specificially says any changes to roads are temporary. Justification being the pandemic.

Nothing in this order about LTNs. Though the provisions in the order would make it possible to introduce LTNs as the order allows road use alterations.

So if this is the right order then it is purely temporary and related to the pandemic. Its time limited.

I don't understand how this fits in with rolling out the LTNs across Lambeth.

From Council commonplace website they are proposed as moving to be permanent. But that is not what this Traffic Order is about.

Maybe Ive missed something but if this is the right Traffic Order its not enough to justify rolling out LTNs.

I do think Lambeth are using pandemic to roll out a project that they want without the usual consultation. If that is the case Im not happy.

Anyone who knows more about traffic orders? Is this the right one?

LONDON BOROUGH OF LAMBETH
ROAD TRAFFIC REGULATION ACT 1984 - SECTION 14
TEMPORARY TRAFFIC AND PARKING RESTRICTIONS FOR SAFE DISTANCING IN
CONNECTION WITH THE COVID 19 PANDEMIC RESTRICTIONS

This looks to me like the Borough Wide Traffic order that I posted about up thread.



If Im wrong can someone post up the correct info.

The Council paper I posted up ( post 2495) said that Borough wide transport order could be used to fastrack altering roads for social distancing etc without the usual consultation.

The Traffic order I have found by Lambeth specificially says any changes to roads are temporary. Justification being the pandemic.

Nothing in this order about LTNs. Though the provisions in the order would make it possible to introduce LTNs as the order allows road use alterations.

So if this is the right order then it is purely temporary and related to the pandemic. Its time limited.

I don't understand how this fits in with rolling out the LTNs across Lambeth.

From Council commonplace website they are proposed as moving to be permanent. But that is not what this Traffic Order is about.

Maybe Ive missed something but if this is the right Traffic Order its not enough to justify rolling out LTNs.

I do think Lambeth are using pandemic to roll out a project that they want without the usual consultation. If that is the case Im not happy.

Anyone who knows more about traffic orders? Is this the right one?

LONDON BOROUGH OF LAMBETH
ROAD TRAFFIC REGULATION ACT 1984 - SECTION 14
TEMPORARY TRAFFIC AND PARKING RESTRICTIONS FOR SAFE DISTANCING IN
CONNECTION WITH THE COVID 19 PANDEMIC RESTRICTIONS

I read somewhere (one of the FB groups) that they had changed the language from temporary to experimental. 'Experimental Road Order' now and that the date was to start from.............late September?. SO the 18 month clock has not even started yet.

 

[co-op]

Do you mean me? I'm not chuckling when I'm having to breathe in shitloads more exhaust fumes on my street. But I'm not a 'car advocate' either. Pretty much hate the things. Apart from Morris Travellers, obvs.

No I totally didn't mean you, I (think) I can see your position, ie getting the CHL pollution but also in favour of cycling, how is this going to work out long term.

No, there are posters who are clearly very keen on stopping any pro-cycling, pro-pedestrian measures but who also want to claim some weird moral high ground of stopping any transport mode except cars on the basis of pollution, which is obviously absurd.

No one who actually cares about pollution opposes LTNs, it's like the sudden concern about ambulances, it's just bogus.

 

[co-op]

CHL has always jammed periodically by the way, always.

 

[editor]

No I totally didn't mean you, I (think) I can see your position, ie getting the CHL pollution but also in favour of cycling, how is this going to work out long term.

No, there are posters who are clearly very keen on stopping any pro-cycling, pro-pedestrian measures but who also want to claim some weird moral high ground of stopping any transport mode except cars on the basis of pollution, which is obviously absurd.

No one who actually cares about pollution opposes LTNs, it's like the sudden concern about ambulances, it's just bogus.

I'd like Land Rover mega-SUV owners to be taxed an extra £5,000.

Per wheel.

 

[CH1]

I haven't been following this thread closely, as I am only a resident facing exclusively onto Coldharbour Lane and unable to open the windows.
I'm wondering if this recent traffic choking on Coldharbour Lane is caused by traffic which formerly would have gone down Railton Road now doing a dog leg down Milkwood Road, then left into Coldharbour Lane? [coming from Herne Hill direction I mean]

Certainly if you stand on CHL opposite the Green Man Employment Exchange it is remarkable how the bulk of the traffic coming down Hinton Road does a sharp left rather than crossing the junction into Loughborough Road,

 

[friendofdorothy]

Many of us have made our lives here - wanting it to be a better place to live (rather than the street we live on getting ever more rat running traffic enabled by Waze and google as it has over the last decade) isn't about an unrealisable theoretical financial gain at some point in the future, possibly for our heirs, it's about having a better environment to live in now.

Yes I've lived here for 22 years but loads of people have lived on my street much longer - 40+ years is not uncommon around here. The high percentage of queer people in the area was the attraction for me, Lambeth has the highest number of older queers in the country. Lots of Railton houses are Housing co-op flats (former Brixton Faerie squats) and there are plenty of housing association homes around here. Plenty of residents, have lived here since before the 81 uprising.

Whatever your personal circumstances, demographically that isn't the case. The vast majority turn up in this area in their 20s and leave before their 50s, most likely before that, when their children approach secondary school..

Churn is a major feature of this area. A quick look on Rightmove shows plenty of places on Railton (first example) that have sold 3 or more times in the last few years.

If local estate agents are anything to go by, there are a large number of rental places in the area on short ASTs, which add to 'churn'. Railton Rd has flooded twice in last 15 years leading to many basement flats been done up and resold.

I suppose you could be right about young couples moving on because of children - there are lots of small flats, badly converted in the 80s in Lambeth, too pokey for families - a flat up stairs has sold 4 times while we have been here - 3 times because of growing families (once because of Brexit). Theres not enough schools I hear.

Does this area have a higher turnover than other London areas? - what has this got to do with clean air anyway?

 

[blameless77]

But you think it's OK for you to call people 'pieces of garbage' and 'twats'?

Clue: it’s really not.

 

[blameless77]

Since you asked... taxpayers all pay towards the cost of cycle lanes, including cyclist taxpayers, of which I'm one.

And we all pay towards the cost of roads, and the much more significant wear and tear created to roads by cars, even those of us including me which don't own a car.

Those of us that don't own cars also pay through our taxes whenever a lunatic drives his or her car into street infrastructure, as has happened regularly along Coldharbour Lane, Dulwich Rd and Railton Rd in the past few months. Repair costs often run into the £ tens of thousands.

We also pay through our taxes for the health costs which are borne (by people obviously but also) by the NHS of pollution created by cars.

When someone chooses to smoke, mostly, these days, laws protect other people from their smoke (although not immediate members of their family, sadly), and the taxes on cigarettes outweigh the costs to society.

But when someone chooses to drive, the negative costs for everyone else are shared equally by the whole of society, not just the person choosing to drive.

Very unfair.

Nail meet head!
(edited to remove typo)

 

[blameless77]

View attachment 228233

Bikes v cars v bus v pedestrians. This is why our city is dominated by the motor vehicle. Look at the cars when you're walking around and you'll see most of them have one occupant. Some of them will be driving down to the local shop. Or the local Post Office. Change is long overdue.

no one has a right to drive

 

[co-op]

I suppose you could be right about young couples moving on because of children - there are lots of small flats, badly converted in the 80s in Lambeth, too pokey for families - a flat up stairs has sold 4 times while we have been here - 3 times because of growing families (once because of Brexit). Theres not enough schools I hear.

I think primary schools was an issue for middle class parents in that poets corner area, Jubilee was seen as the estate school for the Tulse Hill estate and Jessop used to have quite a bad rep, I remember seeing "Jim Dickson" the Labour councillor for the area trying to talk Jessop up at some parents meeting back in 2010, although of course like a hypocritical wanker he had voted to close the old primary school and then moved out of the area to Rosendale ward to send his own kids there.

The middle class parents usually started pretending to be christians to get in at St Judes or moved out, not sure what they do now.

 

[Rushy]

I think primary schools was an issue for middle class parents in that poets corner area, Jubilee was seen as the estate school for the Tulse Hill estate and Jessop used to have quite a bad rep, I remember seeing "Jim Dickson" the Labour councillor for the area trying to talk Jessop up at some parents meeting back in 2010, although of course like a hypocritical wanker he had voted to close the old primary school and then moved out of the area to Rosendale ward to send his own kids there.

The middle class parents usually started pretending to be christians to get in at St Judes or moved out, not sure what they do now.

A friend of mine started dropping by for a cup of tea like clockwork every Sunday at about 11. After about a month I asked him why and he said that he'd started going to church for exactly that reason and dropping by on his way home. I think the churchgoer requirement was dropped about the time his child was accepted. I was told last week that St Judes has recently been under subscribed. I get the impression secondary school choice is more of a catalyst for moving than primary for parents.

I'd be interested to know how the LTN has affected St Judes. Road layout changes mean that when driving in the area I drive directly past the school gates when I rarely did before the LTN. They have recently made a planning application for an ivy screen for pollution protection but I think it is on the other side facing Park View.

 

[newbie]

Does this area have a higher turnover than other London areas? - what has this got to do with clean air anyway?

Did you look at the graph I was aksed for and linked, which clearly shows how few school age children, particularly teenagers, how many 20s/30s and how few over 50s there are in Lambeth relative to both Greater London and England? Comparison with other London boroughs, and breaking down into smaller areas is for another thread, but yes, excess churn is probably the most dominant demographic feature of this area, and has been for decades.

 

[technical]

I'm not wanting to personalise, sorry if that's how it came across.

I don't really disagree with your post, we have a lot of common ground, but there are points I want to tease out.

It seems pretty obvious that although you claim the benefits will go to "everyone else that lives here as well - owners, renters, car owners and non-car owners alike." that's not really the case. Benefits are not alike, even for insiders and there are few benefits for outsiders unless there really is some magical evaporation of traffic. There are potential capital gains for homeowners and landlords, possible rent increases for private tenants, no financial change for social tenants. Those who own and use cars presumably do so for reasons, and the LTN impact on them will be very different from that on those who don't. That's despite everyone breathing the same air, hearing the same streetnoise, walking the same pavements.

You're suggesting that the LTN shouldn't go ahead if "quality of life (however defined) of people living on main roads has suffered as a result ", but surely that's cart before horse. Those people already have the greatest burden, it's them and their welfare that should be at the heart of proposals for change, especially during a pandemic where lung health is of great importance. Rather than plan to increase main road traffic, and then wonder if there's any measurable effects, surely steps should be taken to reduce it? To some extent that's happened naturally, morning and evening peaks are much reduced as people aren't commuting and the West End and City are pretty empty, but reservations about public transport have increased reliance on cars for local journeys. One might have thought that targetted discussion and peer pressure, plus the government nudge unit and whatever else could have been given a chance to work towards a consensual new normal. Instead of which we have quite intentional social division and rancour.

BTW it's not just those living on, or very close to, the main roads, though they are likely to be the ones with the least economic choice. Plenty of people work there, in shops and offices where their Covid safety includes keeping windows open. We hear so much about children walking to school without mentioning how many schools are on main roads- the kids at Jubilee for instance will breath the displaced fumes. Professional drivers- delivery, cab, bus etc- will spend longer breathing pollution from stationary, idling vehicles, as will cyclists, pedestrians and bus passengers. Some of that may be measurable, but most of it not. Some may eventually, years or decades down the line, show up in estimates for premature deaths caused by poor air quality.

I'm not sure what facts you're seeking. The pollution map tells the real story, that the worst problems are on the main roads not the backstreets. I'd like to quote the headline recommendations for a (pre-Covid) report if I may. What's actually happened is at odds with bullet point I've bolded, because it's redesigning the city to push all the pollution onto the most heavily used roads.


Air pollution is the biggest environmental threat to health in the UK, with between 28,000 and 36,000 deaths a year attributed to long-term exposure. There is strong evidence that air pollution causes the development of coronary heart disease, stroke, respiratory disease and lung cancer, and exacerbates asthma.

Professor Paul Cosford, Director of Health Protection and Medical Director at PHE, said:
Now is our opportunity to create a clean air generation of children, by implementing interventions in a coordinated way. By making new developments clean by design we can create a better environment for everyone, especially our children.

Key interventions local authorities can take include:

• promoting a step change in the uptake of low emission vehicles - by setting more ambitious targets for electric car charging points, as well as encouraging low emission fuels and electric cars
• boosting investment in clean public transport, as well as foot and cycle paths to improve health
• redesigning cities so people aren’t so close to highly polluting roads
• discouraging highly polluting vehicles from entering populated areas - for example, with low emission or clean air zones

This work could involve designing wider streets, or considering using hedges to screen against pollutants when planning new infrastructure.

Professor Cosford said:



I've also bolded the last point, because again it's at odds with the LTNs.

The benefits I am talking about (less traffic, better air quality, more equitable use of roads, safer streets through less speeding) will accrue to everyone although yes, particularly to those inside the LTNs. You're being slightly disingenuous in talking about indirect effects other than the primary objectives of the scheme. I think you may well be correct about these, but it's worth using these schemes to test everybody's theory. As for 'magical evaporation' of traffic - you know as well as I do that there is evidence that this does actually happen - yes, there is some disagreement as to accuracy and whether it would happen in other contexts but again this is a worthwhile opportunity to better understand if it works.

Main roads are main roads - in large cities such as London in the current political and economic climate it simply isn't practical to redesign the built environment to allow for greater separation of heavy traffic and residential areas. I'm not sure it would be at any time in fact, but right now not only would the cost be prohibitive, but you would have to completely rewrite the planning system to make it feasible. The problem of strategic road use and pollution can only be solved by eliminating the combustion engine, although the increased demand for electricity for electric vehicles will bring its own problems.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I haven't been following this thread closely, as I am only a resident facing exclusively onto Coldharbour Lane and unable to open the windows.
I'm wondering if this recent traffic choking on Coldharbour Lane is caused by traffic which formerly would have gone down Railton Road now doing a dog leg down Milkwood Road, then left into Coldharbour Lane? [coming from Herne Hill direction I mean]

Certainly if you stand on CHL opposite the Green Man Employment Exchange it is remarkable how the bulk of the traffic coming down Hinton Road does a sharp left rather than crossing the junction into Loughborough Road,

Maybe they're avoiding herne hill because of the roadworks under the bridge, but dulwich road itself seems to be flowing freely.

 

[thebackrow]

Did you look at the graph I was aksed for and linked, which clearly shows how few school age children, particularly teenagers, how many 20s/30s and how few over 50s there are in Lambeth relative to both Greater London and England? Comparison with other London boroughs, and breaking down into smaller areas is for another thread, but yes, excess churn is probably the most dominant demographic feature of this area, and has been for decades.

View attachment 231701

Thanks for that - interesting. So definitely has been a subset of transient population who are here for a (relatively) short time, from their mid 20's to their late 30's and then move on but. the rest of the age bands aren't that different to Greater London as a whole, nor for children even to the UK as a whole. Ie there are a lot of people in the area who make their lives, and bring up their families here in Lambeth and, I suspect, increasing numbers around Brixton. Is that a positive or negative gentrification effect?

the notable thing about that graphic is that the big divergence from London and UK averages is over 55's. Historically it looks like even many people who've brought up their families in the city retire away from it. Again, has always seemed crazy to me to relocate away from a place where shops and services are within easy walking distance once you get older.

 

[blameless77]

I often walk and drive down Coldharbour Lane and there’s no doubt there are times when the traffic is bad. What I don’t understand is why it should be assumed it’s anything to do with LTNs. What journeys are there that someone, because of a LTN, now diverts to CL. There’s all sorts of other reasons why traffic is heavier.

the giant laundry truck that parks outside the holiday inn certainly doesn’t help...

 

[snowy_again]

Hackney councillor is now getting death threats for his pro LTN policies