Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[madolesance]

Thanks for this info. So Lambeth Council leads the way in telling people to get on bikes and walk.

In its own backyard it gives its staff permits to park in local streets.

The wonderful new Town Hall development according to the Council , has bike parking facilities.

So why isn't the Council telling its workers to cycle or walk to work?

Or is that only for joe public in LTNs? The "Culture war" our New Labour Deputy leader Claire Holland was going on about in Starmer supporting Guardian.

The new road rage: bitter rows break out over UK’s low-traffic neighbourhoods

As barriers and signs go up to stop rat runs and promote cycling and walking, communities are deeply divided over the benefits

www.theguardian.com

Looks to me that the Council has created its own LTN around the Town Hall with get out clause that it as the ruliing power can invent a permit system to dump the problem on nearby streets.

These New Labour Cllrs really wind me up.

Been looking at Cllr Claire Hollnad twitter and she is full of herself fighting the "progrressive" corner against those nasty anti LTN people.

A new cycle hub
with changing/shower facilities, now completed.

Completed 18 months ago and well used by council staff. Also loads of share bicycles available for council staff plus about 12 bromptons for staff to borrow. Not perfect, but definitely trying to encourage the cycling option.

 

[snowy_again]

Completed 18 months ago and well used by council staff. Also loads of share bicycles available for council staff plus about 12 bromptons for staff to borrow. Not perfect, but definitely trying to encourage the cycling option.

Was going to say the same thing - the times I’ve been into the bike / shower area there it’s big and almost always full of bikes that had been ridden that day.

 

[teuchter]

Watching comments in various places, quite a common objection raised involves someone saying they need their car to do supermarket shopping.

It's then suggested that online ordering & deliveries are now quite widespread.

The answer to this, is that they shop at Lidl or Aldi, and they don't do deliveries, and the supermarkets that do, are too expensive.

My reaction to this is that owning a car seems a heavy-handed approach to making food shopping a bit cheaper, but I decided to try and see what the numbers are.

The average supermarket spend, per week per household, seems to be about £40 to £60 in the UK depending on who you ask. Let's say £50. It's claimed that Aldi/Lidl is 10-20% cheaper than the "big 4" supermarkets. Let's be generous and say 20%. That means that by shopping at Aldi/Lidl, you might save £10 a week.

The cost of owning a car, per year, excluding fuel also varies depending who you ask. Anything from £2000 to much more than that. Let's take £2000. That's about £40 per week, before you pay for your petrol.

So the car costs you £40 per week and saves you £10 per week on your supermarket bill.

Of course, people will say the car is useful for other things and saves them money there too. But they still have £30+ to account for. And also this is one of the problems of ownership, because once you've bought the car, you've put all that money down and then want to see a return on it, which is one of the reasons why it then ends up getting used for journeys where it's not really necessary.

In any case, the LTNs don't stop anyone driving to Aldi - they just make it take a bit longer. Those car users who object to their time being wasted in this way - if they got shot of the car and started getting deliveries, not only would they make a cash saving but they could reclaim the time, probably a couple of hours at least, that it takes them to drive to the supermarket, do the shopping and come back again. If their time is valuable, surely it makes more sense, even if LTNs aren't even in the picture.

Another option is to split the shopping - heavy non perishable stuff from the supermarket, delivered, but less frequently than weekly. Then ad hoc trips on foot to the local shop, for other stuff. Supporting those local businesses that there's concern about.

 

[editor]

More on that survey Brixton’s low traffic neighbourhood drives big rise in cycling – survey

 

[snowy_again]

Despite the rain this morning, Railton Road was still busy with cyclists and walkers (adults and children), so some habits are becoming more permanent.

There was a traffic jam of cyclists getting across Vauxhall bridge.

 

[Aristocrat]

Watching comments in various places, quite a common objection raised involves someone saying they need their car to do supermarket shopping.

It's then suggested that online ordering & deliveries are now quite widespread.

The answer to this, is that they shop at Lidl or Aldi, and they don't do deliveries, and the supermarkets that do, are too expensive.

My reaction to this is that owning a car seems a heavy-handed approach to making food shopping a bit cheaper, but I decided to try and see what the numbers are.

The average supermarket spend, per week per household, seems to be about £40 to £60 in the UK depending on who you ask. Let's say £50. It's claimed that Aldi/Lidl is 10-20% cheaper than the "big 4" supermarkets. Let's be generous and say 20%. That means that by shopping at Aldi/Lidl, you might save £10 a week.

The cost of owning a car, per year, excluding fuel also varies depending who you ask. Anything from £2000 to much more than that. Let's take £2000. That's about £40 per week, before you pay for your petrol.

So the car costs you £40 per week and saves you £10 per week on your supermarket bill.

Of course, people will say the car is useful for other things and saves them money there too. But they still have £30+ to account for. And also this is one of the problems of ownership, because once you've bought the car, you've put all that money down and then want to see a return on it, which is one of the reasons why it then ends up getting used for journeys where it's not really necessary.

In any case, the LTNs don't stop anyone driving to Aldi - they just make it take a bit longer. Those car users who object to their time being wasted in this way - if they got shot of the car and started getting deliveries, not only would they make a cash saving but they could reclaim the time, probably a couple of hours at least, that it takes them to drive to the supermarket, do the shopping and come back again. If their time is valuable, surely it makes more sense, even if LTNs aren't even in the picture.

Another option is to split the shopping - heavy non perishable stuff from the supermarket, delivered, but less frequently than weekly. Then ad hoc trips on foot to the local shop, for other stuff. Supporting those local businesses that there's concern about.

^^ This. heavy investment in car ads dupes people who don't need them into thinking they need them. Once they've sunk all that investment, and pay their annual insurance bill, the marginal cost of each trip is really low compared to public transport, so they think the whole cost is lower and take the car. I know, because I used to own a car.

 

[Aristocrat]

Who is this charmer?

Another charmer from our 'hood and regular unconstructive troll on Twitter and other social media platforms is busy deploying amateur graphology skills to suggest that Burke faked his own death threat letter.

 

[editor]

Another charmer from our 'hood and regular unconstructive troll on Twitter and other social media platforms is busy deploying amateur graphology skills to suggest that Burke faked his own death threat letter.

" Joined September 2020"

Nuff said...

 

[Ol Nick]

So the car costs you £40 per week and saves you £10 per week on your supermarket bill.

The fundamental economic problem with cars is that the fixed costs are high and the variable costs relatively lower so once you do own a car it becomes economically sensible to use it. Road pricing rather than fixed taxes would help but you still have insurance, MoT, repairs and purchase which are fixed costs. Fix that and you fix cars.

 

[teuchter]

The fundamental economic problem with cars is that the fixed costs are high and the variable costs relatively lower so once you do own a car it becomes economically sensible to use it. Road pricing rather than fixed taxes would help but you still have insurance, MoT, repairs and purchase which are fixed costs. Fix that and you fix cars.

Yes, there is a thread on here where I suggest getting rid of private car ownership altogether and making them all car shares, to deal with this. Not a popular idea, as you might expect.

 

[Gramsci]

Completed 18 months ago and well used by council staff. Also loads of share bicycles available for council staff plus about 12 bromptons for staff to borrow. Not perfect, but definitely trying to encourage the cycling option.

So why is the Council car free Town Hall development needing to use neighbouring streets as unoffiicial car park?

This really wrankles.

If Council is going to set an example as its now rolling out LTNs on Joe public then this need to stop don't you think?

 

[Gramsci]

Watching comments in various places, quite a common objection raised involves someone saying they need their car to do supermarket shopping.

It's then suggested that online ordering & deliveries are now quite widespread.

The answer to this, is that they shop at Lidl or Aldi, and they don't do deliveries, and the supermarkets that do, are too expensive.

My reaction to this is that owning a car seems a heavy-handed approach to making food shopping a bit cheaper, but I decided to try and see what the numbers are.

The average supermarket spend, per week per household, seems to be about £40 to £60 in the UK depending on who you ask. Let's say £50. It's claimed that Aldi/Lidl is 10-20% cheaper than the "big 4" supermarkets. Let's be generous and say 20%. That means that by shopping at Aldi/Lidl, you might save £10 a week.

The cost of owning a car, per year, excluding fuel also varies depending who you ask. Anything from £2000 to much more than that. Let's take £2000. That's about £40 per week, before you pay for your petrol.

So the car costs you £40 per week and saves you £10 per week on your supermarket bill.

Of course, people will say the car is useful for other things and saves them money there too. But they still have £30+ to account for. And also this is one of the problems of ownership, because once you've bought the car, you've put all that money down and then want to see a return on it, which is one of the reasons why it then ends up getting used for journeys where it's not really necessary.

In any case, the LTNs don't stop anyone driving to Aldi - they just make it take a bit longer. Those car users who object to their time being wasted in this way - if they got shot of the car and started getting deliveries, not only would they make a cash saving but they could reclaim the time, probably a couple of hours at least, that it takes them to drive to the supermarket, do the shopping and come back again. If their time is valuable, surely it makes more sense, even if LTNs aren't even in the picture.

Another option is to split the shopping - heavy non perishable stuff from the supermarket, delivered, but less frequently than weekly. Then ad hoc trips on foot to the local shop, for other stuff. Supporting those local businesses that there's concern about.

I work with a couple of ex market traders.

Supermarkets destroyed local shops and markets.

Take our newly "Green" New Labour Council which took away the Brixton Market car park to placate Tescos Streatham ice rink deal. I didn't see Lambeth Council insisting the development there was car free.

I don't get all your argument.

Some people I know use Uber to get large shopping from supermarket. Or use the delivery service. So that is going to increase traffic. Whether one owns a car or not.

If the idea is to reduce traffic something needs to be done about providing affordable local food/ shopping for people.

So called local Tescos are expensive compared to the big ones. LJ Tescos I only use if desparate.

So perhaps some nationalisation of food distribution is required. To get it to local areas at affordable price.

Im all for some joined up thinking on reducing traffic. So as well as nationalising transport getting rid of the strangle hold that the big supermarkets have can go on the list.

 

[Gramsci]

Im all for a FAIR transition to a Green economy.

 

[madolesance]

So why is the Council car free Town Hall development needing to use neighbouring streets as unoffiicial car park?

This really wrankles.

If Council is going to set an example as its now rolling out LTNs on Joe public then this need to stop don't you think?

But are Lambeth using local neighbourhood streets for parking? Most of them already look like they are full of residence's vehicles. Can we have more facts rather than curtain twitching hearsay please.

 

[Gramsci]

But are Lambeth using local neighbourhood streets for parking? Most of them already look like they are full of residence's vehicles. Can we have more facts rather than curtain twitching hearsay please.

have you been reading past few pages of this thread?

I don't think so.

BTW I posted a lot of facts about the traffic orders that Lambeth has been using. The fact that it has not clearly stated to residents how to object and the actual process its been using. What is your view you on that as you are keen on "facts" now and not "curtain twitching"?

The logic of your argument is that Im "curtain twitching" using "hearsay" but Im supposed to take your comment on the Council encouraging cycle use at face value. So that is not "curtain twitching". Give me a break please.

 

[madolesance]

have you been reading past few pages of this thread?

I don't think so.

BTW I posted a lot of facts about the traffic orders that Lambeth has been using. The fact that it has not clearly stated to residents how to object and the actual process its been using. What is your view you on that as you are keen on "facts" now and not "curtain twitching"?

Been reading and trying keep up with this long and occasionally tiresome thread. Got a letter from Lambeth clearly out lining their plans for my local area regarding LTNs. All very clear about their intentions and clear information regarding any objections and how to present them. Whats not to like? Shall we work to increase motor vehicles because they are necessary or aim to reduce them?

 

[Gramsci]

Been reading and trying keep up with this long and occasionally tiresome thread. Got a letter from Lambeth clearly out lining their plans for my local area regarding LTNs. All very clear about their intentions and clear information regarding any objections and how to present them. Whats not to like? Shall we work to increase motor vehicles because they are necessary or aim to reduce them?

So whatever Lambeth say you take at face value.

You really have not been reading this thread. Ive shown that Lambeth have not given clear information on how they are doing this. It took me time searching for info. That is a fact not me being a "curtain twitcher"

 

[editor]

Been reading and trying keep up with this long and occasionally tiresome thread. Got a letter from Lambeth clearly out lining their plans for my local area regarding LTNs. All very clear about their intentions and clear information regarding any objections and how to present them. Whats not to like? Shall we work to increase motor vehicles because they are necessary or aim to reduce them?

Just to balance out the debate: I'm in Coldharbour Lane which is now suffering a big increase in traffic/pollution and it seems pretty clear that this is - at least partly - brought on by the LTNs. I've had no consultation, no letters, nothing and I'm getting really fucked off with the growing traffic numbers.

 

[madolesance]

Just to balance out the debate: I'm in Coldharbour Lane which is now suffering a big increase in traffic/pollution and it seems pretty clear that this is - at least partly - brought on by the LTNs. I've had no consultation, no letters, nothing and I'm getting really fucked off with the growing traffic numbers.

Car Free Day?
When some one drives down Coldharbour Lane do they ask your permission to be there or do they just expect it a privilege that no one should object to? That's your neighbourhood! Step back and think about who should be using it.

 

[editor]

Car Free Day?
When some one drives down Coldharbour Lane do they ask your permission to be there or do they just expect it a privilege that no one should object to? That's your neighbourhood! Step back and think about who should be using it.

I've really no idea what you're on about, sorry, but as a resident I think I'm entitled to have a moan when the traffic and the pollution suddenly increases outside my home.

 

[teuchter]

I passed through Tooting at the weekend, removing the LTNs there seems to have sorted everything out.

 

[editor]

They should make it a law that when some twat in a monster SUV has blocked the pavement with his oversized slab of metal, you are entitled to walk directly over it, or draw pretty pictures in the paintwork with your key.

 

[CH1]

Just to balance out the debate: I'm in Coldharbour Lane which is now suffering a big increase in traffic/pollution and it seems pretty clear that this is - at least partly - brought on by the LTNs. I've had no consultation, no letters, nothing and I'm getting really fucked off with the growing traffic numbers.

I'm also on Coldharbour Lane. I've recently received a leaflet through my letter box inviting me to do a survey on an app or the internet.
I haven't got round to it yet - so can't tell you what they ask about.

 

[Rushy]

But are Lambeth using local neighbourhood streets for parking? Most of them already look like they are full of residence's vehicles. Can we have more facts rather than curtain twitching hearsay please.

How can you tell they are mostly full of resident's vehicles? What do you think a Lambeth council vehicle looks like? Until recently you could tell them by looking at the permits. Now they are moving to virtual permits - no paper disc. You can't tell the difference apart from a handful of their branded vehicles.

Here's a single yellow line at midday on a Wednesday. The Town Hall is 50-100yds around the corner. Every single one of those cars on the near side (yellow line) is a Lambeth permitted vehicle.



And again, a Friday at 1.30pm. Yep - that graffitied van too. It did not move from its spot on the yellow line for almost three months. Not a single parking ticket.



I have counted 18 Lambeth permits parked just at the north end of the road at once. That's pretty much every parking bay and yellow line fully occupied and 10% of the council's 189 permits.

Staff have been formally banned by Lambeth from parking Lambeth vehicles on Porden, Buckner and Acre Lane (although they still appear to from what I have seen on Acre Lane). St Matthews is the next closest road. Not that their permits actually entitle them to park there anyway - I had to do an FOI to find out what their actual permit usage guidelines are because they were being so vague. It seems that you can't get a straight answer about much without an FOI these days.

Lambeth insists that the street is thoroughly enforced but another FOI shows that this does not seem to apply to Lambeth vehicles - of over 500 tickets on the street in three years, less than 1% went to vehicles identifiable as Lambeth staff vehicles for parking in a restricted street during controlled hours. Wardens repeatedly confirm that they are told to ignore illegally parked Lambeth staff vehicles.

Lambeth's response for at least two years has been that they are having a review of their staff parking and transport policy. They are unable to say when the review is expected to conclude.

So they have closed St Matthews Road to through traffic to make it safer for cyclists - but the main source of vehicles during normal times remains Lambeth Town Hall cars and vans and trucks coming and going all day looking for somewhere to park. They also narrow the roads during peak hours by parking on all available controlled yellow lines. All because they built over their car parks and did not have a plan of where to put the vehicles - other than in the street. That is Lambeth's car free town hall development.

You can't blame staff for wanting to park as close as they are allowed to the building. It is the council's bending of rules for their staff that is the issue.

Thankfully it is much quieter at the moment as the town hall is not busy.

 

[co-op]

I work with a couple of ex market traders.

Supermarkets destroyed local shops and markets.

Take our newly "Green" New Labour Council which took away the Brixton Market car park to placate Tescos Streatham ice rink deal. I didn't see Lambeth Council insisting the development there was car free.

I don't get all your argument.

Some people I know use Uber to get large shopping from supermarket. Or use the delivery service. So that is going to increase traffic. Whether one owns a car or not.

If the idea is to reduce traffic something needs to be done about providing affordable local food/ shopping for people.

So called local Tescos are expensive compared to the big ones. LJ Tescos I only use if desparate.

So perhaps some nationalisation of food distribution is required. To get it to local areas at affordable price.

Im all for some joined up thinking on reducing traffic. So as well as nationalising transport getting rid of the strangle hold that the big supermarkets have can go on the list.

Seriously if people for whom raw "affordability" is your concern then you are not talking about car drivers - poor people don't own cars. Sure there will be some on the margins - ie car owners who can only just afford their car and for whom the difference in price between shopping local and hitting a big discounter is the financial justification for owning a car, but surely you can see this is a really small group?

And getting food delivered is far more road efficient than having people each drive and do their own shopping, surely you can see that? 1 delivery van journey can replace 20 or more car journeys easily. We should be pushing supermarkets to use electrified cycle last mile logistics of this sort Our Bikes | Zedify so that they can move through the LTNs - this is a far more practical and implementable idea than your demands that we nationalise food selling and transport before we do anything about the car problem.

It feels like you are clutching at straws to find reasons to oppose any scheme that reduces car use.

 

[Gramsci]

It feels like you are clutching at straws to find reasons to oppose any scheme that reduces car use.

I have repeatedly said on this thread Im critically supportive of the LTNs. So please stop saying this. Thankyou.

 

[co-op]

I have repeatedly said on this thread Im critically supportive of the LTNs. So please stop saying this. Thankyou.

I know you have said this, but the point I'm making is that you keep saying that you're "critically supportive" but the reality is what you post seems like you are clutching at straws to find criticisms - I was pointing out that some of your "reasons" for being critical in your last post just don't stand up for a minute.

You haven't gone full LTN crazy (I think claiming that LTNs are bad for cyclists safety might take the prize on this thread so far) but you have consistently argued that LTNs are a problem for multiple reasons and it starts to look to me like you aren't "critically supportive", just critical.

 

[Gramsci]

I know you have said this, but the point I'm making is that you keep saying that you're "critically supportive" but the reality is what you post seems like you are clutching at straws to find criticisms - I was pointing out that some of your "reasons" for being critical in your last post just don't stand up for a minute.

You haven't gone full LTN crazy (I think claiming that LTNs are bad for cyclists safety might take the prize on this thread so far) but you have consistently argued that LTNs are a problem for multiple reasons and it starts to look to me like you aren't "critically supportive", just critical.

My main problem has been how they have been implemented.

The Council have decided to go ahead without the usual ( and previously promised) consultation.

Its not scheme I have any particular investment in as the Council didnt ask me about it.

The idea that im just critical is the what Cllrs/ officers have used against me over the years. They just aren't keen on people who ask questions.

 

[co-op]

My main problem has been how they have been implemented.

The Council have decided to go ahead without the usual ( and previously promised) consultation.

Its not scheme I have any particular investment in as the Council didnt ask me about it.

The idea that im just critical is the what Cllrs/ officers have used against me over the years. They just aren't keen on people who ask questions.

I would never try and defend Lambeths consultation processes, they're obviously crap and always have been as far as I can remember.

But I guess it's possible to support LTNs and also believe this? If so why go on about poor people not being able to drive to the shops etc? That's nothing to do with the consultation, that's just straight up anti-LTN propaganda (it's also wrong because poor people never drove anyway).

 

[Gramsci]

I would never try and defend Lambeths consultation processes, they're obviously crap and always have been as far as I can remember.

But I guess it's possible to support LTNs and also believe this? If so why go on about poor people not being able to drive to the shops etc? That's nothing to do with the consultation, that's just straight up anti-LTN propaganda (it's also wrong because poor people never drove anyway).

Just stop misinterpreting my posts on this thread as anti TN propaganda. I've done nothing of the sort on this thread.