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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

We know which are the most polluted roads, yes.

We don't know for sure how much extra traffic the LTNs put on those roads in the short term (it seems plausible there will be an increase in places)

We don't know for sure what effect that extra traffic has on air pollution - is it directly proportional (if I remember rightly the Ghent study found that it was not)

We don't know for sure how much extra traffic the individual LTNs put on those roads in the long term (it's quite plausible that the level of traffic ends up being similar or even lower, as it's limited by the capacity of the road and drivers' tolerance of congestion)

We don't know for sure how the overall level of traffic, and consequently the level on those roads, responds to a London-wide progressive implementation of LTN type schemes (but it's quite plausible that it will reduce it).

So, no, I'm not "in favour of making the most polluted roads worse".
so, we know where the pollution (congestion, problems) concentrates but rather than tackle it you want to do something else, reduce traffic where the air (congestion, problems) is better, despite not knowing for sure what odds that will make?

In the old-normal run of things there would have been extensive consultation and you'd have needed to actually clearly demonstrate the benefits. Now it doesn't matter, do it anyway. Then you'd have needed to persuade people out of their cars (which has been quite successful over the years). Now, it can be imposed. At a time when the main message is 'pull together to defeat the common threat' the schemes are reliant on overwhelming "drivers' tolerance of congestion", make them so frustrated they give up.

Because you know best.
 
Gun ownership comes to mind immediately. We used to allow guns to be owned much more widely and used under licence but because some people behaved illegally there were much stricter restrictions placed on their ownership and use, even for those (like farmers for example) who may have had completely legitimate reasons to own weapons.

Guns don't kill people rappers do,
From Bristol Zoo to B&Q,
I want to rap, I want to rhyme
Heard it in a song now I'm into gun crime,
Its a sign of the times like Prince changin his name,
Gotta have a shooter to be in the rap game,
Like Michael Ryan about to snap,
Guns don't kill people its just rap!
comparing personal mobility with weaponry? give me strength.
 
I do find this assumption that everyone just wants to sell up and leave really odd. Are you personally just waiting to leave? Don't project your own thought process onto everyone else.

Many of us have made our lives here - wanting it to be a better place to live (rather than the street we live on getting ever more rat running traffic enabled by Waze and google as it has over the last decade) isn't about an unrealisable theoretical financial gain at some point in the future, possibly for our heirs, it's about having a better environment to live in now.
Whatever your personal circumstances, demographically that isn't the case. The vast majority turn up in this area in their 20s and leave before their 50s, most likely before that, when their children approach secondary school..

Churn is a major feature of this area. A quick look on Rightmove shows plenty of places on Railton (first example) that have sold 3 or more times in the last few years.
 
comparing personal mobility with weaponry? give me strength.
Very much the same sort of externalities. Can be used safely with no impact on others, can easily kill either intentionally or through lack care and attention.

It was the most obvious example but I'm sure there are others. Mostly we do it when something has the capability to be misused, cause injury or has other externatlies.

Knives, glue/solvents, stuff that can be turned into explosives. But smoking is in the same sort of category - it's legal but we now restrict where you can do it. We tax alcohol and control its sale for similar reasons.
 
Churn is a major feature of this area. A quick look on Rightmove shows plenty of places on Railton (first example) that have sold 3 or more times in the last few years.
Another massive generalisation and a bit of anecdata. I'm guessing most of the people on this forum have been here a fair while.
 
so, we know where the pollution (congestion, problems) concentrates but rather than tackle it you want to do something else, reduce traffic where the air (congestion, problems) is better, despite not knowing for sure what odds that will make?

In the old-normal run of things there would have been extensive consultation and you'd have needed to actually clearly demonstrate the benefits. Now it doesn't matter, do it anyway. Then you'd have needed to persuade people out of their cars (which has been quite successful over the years). Now, it can be imposed. At a time when the main message is 'pull together to defeat the common threat' the schemes are reliant on overwhelming "drivers' tolerance of congestion", make them so frustrated they give up.

Because you know best.
It’s a point I’ve made before, LTNs aren’t some new experiment, they exist in Brixton already, we know the benefits already.
 
Very much the same sort of externalities. Can be used safely with no impact on others, can easily kill either intentionally or through lack care and attention.

It was the most obvious example but I'm sure there are others. Mostly we do it when something has the capability to be misused, cause injury or has other externatlies.

Knives, glue/solvents, stuff that can be turned into explosives. But smoking is in the same sort of category - it's legal but we now restrict where you can do it. We tax alcohol and control its sale for similar reasons.
erm, none of those examples are geographically ringfenced, legal in one street but not in another.

I wish I hadn't asked.
 
erm, none of those examples are geographically ringfenced, legal in one street but not in another.
I wish I hadn't asked.
Nor is driving within Low Traffic Neighbourhoods - anyone can still legally drive on any road, just some are now not through routes. You seem very confused about this.
 
Another massive generalisation and a bit of anecdata. I'm guessing most of the people on this forum have been here a fair while.
it's not anecdata, go and look at the last few census results. I think I posted the main graph from 2011 earlier in the thread.
 
sure, generalisation, I'm writing posts on a discussion board not some academic paper.

But look at what you just said... "My street is in the Tulse Hill LTN .... I support it on a trial basis to see if it makes a difference to traffic, air quality and speeding on our streets. " That's exactly my point: benefit for you as an insider will swing the deal. When the consultation takes place it will be insiders consulted, just as only insiders (and cycling campaigners?) have had any involvement in the run up to the newer LTNs.

Yet that almost certainly means the outcome is a foregone conclusion, because the benefits accrue almost exclusively to insiders and all the problems will land in someone else's lungs.

And I'm sorry to be blunt, but I simply do not believe that insider homeowners have not done the calculation that says I bought on a rat run because the equivalent places on quieter, more desirable streets were outside my budget, and when I sell I'll reap an additional capital gain because the street will be quieter. Tenants, by contrast should reckon on their rents rising as streets become more desirable, because landlords will reap their ill gotten gains both ways.

BTW, they're not your streets, they're streets for Londoners, one of which you live in temporarily. I know it's a figure of speech, but insider/outsider is central to this debate.

Slightly patronising tone, but whatever. Sorry if I gave the impression that I think I own the streets - thank you for reminding me that I don't.

My point was that you're making generalisations that have no basis in fact as far as I can see.

I think I would benefit from this scheme personally yes - both in terms of the area being a nicer place to live and there being less domination by traffic, but so would everyone else that lives here as well - owners, renters, car owners and non-car owners alike. I accept your point that displacement may happen but think its worthwhile sticking with the trial period to be able to make decisions based on evidence rather than assertion.

After the end of the trial period if it's demonstrated that quality of life (however defined) of people living on main roads has suffered as a result then it shouldn't be permanent. I'm not clear on what basis the final decision will be made, but if it simply about asking those inside then I'd agree that is too narrow a base to make a proper judgement. Although on the basis of the discussions with neighbours and residents on surrounding roads, I wouldn't say its a foregone conclusion that it would go ahead given the number of people who are fearful of the disruption this is likely to bring.
 
so, we know where the pollution (congestion, problems) concentrates but rather than tackle it you want to do something else, reduce traffic where the air (congestion, problems) is better, despite not knowing for sure what odds that will make?

In the old-normal run of things there would have been extensive consultation and you'd have needed to actually clearly demonstrate the benefits. Now it doesn't matter, do it anyway. Then you'd have needed to persuade people out of their cars (which has been quite successful over the years). Now, it can be imposed. At a time when the main message is 'pull together to defeat the common threat' the schemes are reliant on overwhelming "drivers' tolerance of congestion", make them so frustrated they give up.

Because you know best.
Like I very clearly said in the post you are quoting, I do want to tackle pollution and congestion in the places where it concentrates. I believe that the longer term effect of progressively introducing LTN type schemes will be that traffic can be reduced everywhere including places that currently suffer the most. I've only said this about a thousand times already in this thread. For some reason, this part of the argument, the longer term and wider scale strategy never really seems to attract any engagement from the "concerned about displacement" people.

Presumably, it's not an argument that you think stacks up (despite many cities across the world having had success with this kind of strategy) because you know best.

And how much consultation has there been with people on whether they are happy to just carry on as we are, and NOT attempt change of this kind? Is there a survey that says yes, 73% of Londoners would prefer just to do nothing until an unidentified alternative becomes politically and/or technically viable? Has anyone clearly demonstrated the benefits of following what you say is best (do nothing, and say it's someone else's problem to think up an alternative)?
 
Slightly patronising tone, but whatever. Sorry if I gave the impression that I think I own the streets - thank you for reminding me that I don't.

My point was that you're making generalisations that have no basis in fact as far as I can see.

I think I would benefit from this scheme personally yes - both in terms of the area being a nicer place to live and there being less domination by traffic, but so would everyone else that lives here as well - owners, renters, car owners and non-car owners alike. I accept your point that displacement may happen but think its worthwhile sticking with the trial period to be able to make decisions based on evidence rather than assertion.

After the end of the trial period if it's demonstrated that quality of life (however defined) of people living on main roads has suffered as a result then it shouldn't be permanent. I'm not clear on what basis the final decision will be made, but if it simply about asking those inside then I'd agree that is too narrow a base to make a proper judgement. Although on the basis of the discussions with neighbours and residents on surrounding roads, I wouldn't say its a foregone conclusion that it would go ahead given the number of people who are fearful of the disruption this is likely to bring.
I'm not wanting to personalise, sorry if that's how it came across.

I don't really disagree with your post, we have a lot of common ground, but there are points I want to tease out.

It seems pretty obvious that although you claim the benefits will go to "everyone else that lives here as well - owners, renters, car owners and non-car owners alike." that's not really the case. Benefits are not alike, even for insiders and there are few benefits for outsiders unless there really is some magical evaporation of traffic. There are potential capital gains for homeowners and landlords, possible rent increases for private tenants, no financial change for social tenants. Those who own and use cars presumably do so for reasons, and the LTN impact on them will be very different from that on those who don't. That's despite everyone breathing the same air, hearing the same streetnoise, walking the same pavements.

You're suggesting that the LTN shouldn't go ahead if "quality of life (however defined) of people living on main roads has suffered as a result ", but surely that's cart before horse. Those people already have the greatest burden, it's them and their welfare that should be at the heart of proposals for change, especially during a pandemic where lung health is of great importance. Rather than plan to increase main road traffic, and then wonder if there's any measurable effects, surely steps should be taken to reduce it? To some extent that's happened naturally, morning and evening peaks are much reduced as people aren't commuting and the West End and City are pretty empty, but reservations about public transport have increased reliance on cars for local journeys. One might have thought that targetted discussion and peer pressure, plus the government nudge unit and whatever else could have been given a chance to work towards a consensual new normal. Instead of which we have quite intentional social division and rancour.

BTW it's not just those living on, or very close to, the main roads, though they are likely to be the ones with the least economic choice. Plenty of people work there, in shops and offices where their Covid safety includes keeping windows open. We hear so much about children walking to school without mentioning how many schools are on main roads- the kids at Jubilee for instance will breath the displaced fumes. Professional drivers- delivery, cab, bus etc- will spend longer breathing pollution from stationary, idling vehicles, as will cyclists, pedestrians and bus passengers. Some of that may be measurable, but most of it not. Some may eventually, years or decades down the line, show up in estimates for premature deaths caused by poor air quality.

I'm not sure what facts you're seeking. The pollution map tells the real story, that the worst problems are on the main roads not the backstreets. I'd like to quote the headline recommendations for a (pre-Covid) report if I may. What's actually happened is at odds with bullet point I've bolded, because it's redesigning the city to push all the pollution onto the most heavily used roads.


Air pollution is the biggest environmental threat to health in the UK, with between 28,000 and 36,000 deaths a year attributed to long-term exposure. There is strong evidence that air pollution causes the development of coronary heart disease, stroke, respiratory disease and lung cancer, and exacerbates asthma.

Professor Paul Cosford, Director of Health Protection and Medical Director at PHE, said:
Now is our opportunity to create a clean air generation of children, by implementing interventions in a coordinated way. By making new developments clean by design we can create a better environment for everyone, especially our children.

Key interventions local authorities can take include:

  • promoting a step change in the uptake of low emission vehicles - by setting more ambitious targets for electric car charging points, as well as encouraging low emission fuels and electric cars
  • boosting investment in clean public transport, as well as foot and cycle paths to improve health
  • redesigning cities so people aren’t so close to highly polluting roads
  • discouraging highly polluting vehicles from entering populated areas - for example, with low emission or clean air zones

This work could involve designing wider streets, or considering using hedges to screen against pollutants when planning new infrastructure.

Professor Cosford said:

We recommend that at a local level, any new policy or programme of work which affects air pollution should aim to deliver an overall benefit to the public’s health.

So transport and urban planners will need to work together, with others involved in air pollution to ensure that new initiatives have a positive impact.

Decision makers should carefully design policies, to make sure that the poorest in society are protected against the financial implications of new schemes.

I've also bolded the last point, because again it's at odds with the LTNs.
 
Like I very clearly said in the post you are quoting, I do want to tackle pollution and congestion in the places where it concentrates. I believe that the longer term effect of progressively introducing LTN type schemes will be that traffic can be reduced everywhere including places that currently suffer the most. I've only said this about a thousand times already in this thread. For some reason, this part of the argument, the longer term and wider scale strategy never really seems to attract any engagement from the "concerned about displacement" people.

Presumably, it's not an argument that you think stacks up (despite many cities across the world having had success with this kind of strategy) because you know best.

And how much consultation has there been with people on whether they are happy to just carry on as we are, and NOT attempt change of this kind? Is there a survey that says yes, 73% of Londoners would prefer just to do nothing until an unidentified alternative becomes politically and/or technically viable? Has anyone clearly demonstrated the benefits of following what you say is best (do nothing, and say it's someone else's problem to think up an alternative)?
I've actually tried to address some of that in what I just wrote. I certainly don't think I know best, but I can see glaring holes in the LTN ideology, so I'm trying to discuss them. Frankly it's up to you and your side of the debate to answer any and all criticisms with something better than 'I believe... ' and, to paraphrase, the only alternative is to do nothing or build more motorways. You, your side, is imposing it, it's up to you to justify it. Not the other way round.

FWIW the report I just mentioned says (p184)

1600957530630.png
Make of that what you will.
 
I've actually tried to address some of that in what I just wrote. I certainly don't think I know best, but I can see glaring holes in the LTN ideology, so I'm trying to discuss them. Frankly it's up to you and your side of the debate to answer any and all criticisms with something better than 'I believe... ' and, to paraphrase, the only alternative is to do nothing or build more motorways. You, your side, is imposing it, it's up to you to justify it. Not the other way round.
If you're saying things like modal shifts, traffic evaporation etc don't exist- why wouldn't you be asked to back that up?.
 
You, your side, is imposing it, it's up to you to justify it. Not the other way round.
Here's a street. It's communally owned space. What shall we do with it - shall we put a load of infrastructure on it (signage, markings, kerbs, traffic lights, licencing systems, parking systems & associated administrative backup to all of those things) to facilitate the use of private motor vehicles alongside pedestrians? Yes we shall. Everyone is basically agreed on that. Now the only question is the exact arrangement of that infrastructure, and the extent to which it prioritises pedestrians and other non-motorised road users. The proposal is, in the scheme of things, a very minor shift in the balance of priorities.

Either way, the street has a load of stuff "imposed" on it, a mixture of physical infrastructure and legal arrangements.

Why should one type of imposition require greater justification than the other? Why should one imposition be exempt from justification just because it's appeared gradually (and without any consultation)?

If you want to go all libertarian, then the street without impositions doesn't have any of this stuff on it, it's just a gap between some parcels of private property. I'm not actually suggesting you're part of this group but the funny thing about the portion of the motorist lobby which is obsessed with freedom and resisting authoritarian restrictions seems to forget that making it possible for people to drive motorised vehicles around on public streets involves an absolutely immense amount of imposed infrastructure and rules, the job of most of which is basically to prevent drivers doing whatever they want, not only to protect the more vulnerable road users but to avoid complete chaos.
 
I did hear something about this at a local meeting. But didnt reallly believe Councils could do this ( pre pandemic) as imo it goes against local democracy. I did think Councils were obliged to consult first then put schemes in place. That is how local democracy worked I thought.

I think I may have been at the same meeting? Was it an online one in August?

A resident spoke about Natural Justice. At first I thought it was the same bull as those Soverign citizens (?) but then he said it was the main reasons why councils carry out consultation (fairness, proper procedure) and also the main reason why lambeth pushed these through under emergency powers. He said you're "shooting first and asking the questions later".
 
Here's a street. It's communally owned space. What shall we do with it - shall we put a load of infrastructure on it (signage, markings, kerbs, traffic lights, licencing systems, parking systems & associated administrative backup to all of those things) to facilitate the use of private motor vehicles alongside pedestrians? Yes we shall. Everyone is basically agreed on that. Now the only question is the exact arrangement of that infrastructure, and the extent to which it prioritises pedestrians and other non-motorised road users. The proposal is, in the scheme of things, a very minor shift in the balance of priorities.

Either way, the street has a load of stuff "imposed" on it, a mixture of physical infrastructure and legal arrangements.

Why should one type of imposition require greater justification than the other? Why should one imposition be exempt from justification just because it's appeared gradually (and without any consultation)?

Are you really contrasting the changes that have taken a century or so with what's been happening since sometime after this thread started? I suppose in some rather abstract way you've got a point of sorts, but you're scratching vainly to find it or make it relevant.


If you want to go all libertarian, then the street without impositions doesn't have any of this stuff on it, it's just a gap between some parcels of private property. I'm not actually suggesting you're part of this group but the funny thing about the portion of the motorist lobby which is obsessed with freedom and resisting authoritarian restrictions seems to forget that making it possible for people to drive motorised vehicles around on public streets involves an absolutely immense amount of imposed infrastructure and rules, the job of most of which is basically to prevent drivers doing whatever they want, not only to protect the more vulnerable road users but to avoid complete chaos.
well yes but I don't. None of that has anything to do with me or this discussion.
 
If you're saying things like modal shifts, traffic evaporation etc don't exist- why wouldn't you be asked to back that up?.
I very much doubt you can show evidence of modal shift or traffic evaporation on any of the previous Brixton schemes you mentioned earlier, yet you have such faith you think it's up to me to prove it couldn't happen? No, it's not. It's up to those who are so keen on these flawed schemes to show that they will produce benefit to anyone other than a few obvious insiders.
 
Are you really contrasting the changes that have taken a century or so with what's been happening since sometime after this thread started? I suppose in some rather abstract way you've got a point of sorts, but you're scratching vainly to find it or make it relevant.
I am trying to make the point that implementing the LTNs is no more an 'imposition' than not implementing them. Either option involves imposition of rules and restrictions. Neither is retaining the status quo not changing anything - it's allowing a change to continue, a change that means increasing negative impacts for many people. Especially at this moment in time.
 
I very much doubt you can show evidence of modal shift or traffic evaporation on any of the previous Brixton schemes you mentioned earlier, yet you have such faith you think it's up to me to prove it couldn't happen? No, it's not. It's up to those who are so keen on these flawed schemes to show that they will produce benefit to anyone other than a few obvious insiders.
But if you look at the way Blenheim estate was designed, or the modal filter that’s been on stratleven road as long as I can remember. Why are these things like that if it’s a bad idea?. What happened to the traffic?.
 
Bus lanes

4 lanes reduced to 2 due to increasing car sizes

Road closures

Cycle lanes

all have been massively extended in the past 30 years, all "reduced capacity" for cars and yet at the end of all of them we were at the car-drivers paradise that was Lambeth before LTNs were introduced. Same thing will happen for LTNs. Same every time.
 
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