Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[snowy_again]

I don’t think they’re all that - just probably feeling a bit lost and hopeless which makes them easy prey for propaganda/populism.

But you’re right - they’re evidently not the group with the demographic and approach they state.

 

[thebackrow]

So it is quite reasonable to expect the Council to look into whether traffic is being displaced onto CHL.

I know someone who works for Lambeth Council. I spoke to them and asked them what they thought. They said they didn't think the CHL traffic was down to the LTN.

[obviously I have not done this yet but I know a few people with council connections. Nothing to do with transport monitoring but anecdote is fine isn't it?]

 

[Brian Taylor]

The traffic that used Shakespeare Road and Railton Road as an overflow to avoid Coldharbour Lane was on one hand horrendous enough to justify closing both roads, but on the other hand insignificant enough to not play any part in the current congestion when it's forced back onto Coldharbour?

 

[thebackrow]

The traffic that used Shakespeare Road and Railton Road as an overflow to avoid Coldharbour Lane was on one hand horrendous enough to justify closing both roads, but on the other hand insignificant enough to not play any part in the current congestion when it's forced back onto Coldharbour?

That's always the dilemma isn't it? The same people objecting to the LTN and claiming the traffic levels on the streets that have been filtered was so low that there was no issue but is creating chaos everywhere else. So in the end theres needs to be a decision about how we want our streets to be. If we want large volumes of people to be able to drive from Clapham to Camberwell, lets start knocking down homes and building that motorway.

 

[Brian Taylor]

As someone who's lived on Shakespeare Road for the last 15 years I might have a slightly clearer view of how bad the traffic was than most. But no one bothered to ask.

 

[thebackrow]

As someone who's lived on Shakespeare Road for the last 15 years I might have a slightly clearer view of how bad the traffic was than most. But no one bothered to ask.

and what was your view?

 

[Brian Taylor]

It was unremarkable, a relatively quiet side road on the doorstep of central London. There was some rush hour congestion when we first moved here but the council solved that by introducing staggered parking bays. Honestly I'd never thought of it as a problem or heard anyone else complain about it.
I mostly get around on foot and really can't reconcile the reality I saw every day with the tales of woe I read about the traffic horror on Shakespeare, Railton and the rest of the new LTN.
Maybe my expectations are just different.

 

[co-op]

But no one bothered to ask.

To be fair, including you.

 

[editor]

The One Lambeth group is turning a bit nasty with the usual tropes being rolled out.

Cyclists are ‘scum of the road’ who don’t pay road tax.

A local ltn campaigner has had her home address shared and she’s being fat shamed: ‘Should go to the gym more than being on a bike’ etc.

And as she’s not from the UK apparently has no right to be doing what she’s doing.

Any traffic (caused by accidents or roadworks) is the fault of ltns and Khan has ruined London

That's absolutely awful.

 

[editor]

It was unremarkable, a relatively quiet side road on the doorstep of central London. There was some rush hour congestion when we first moved here but the council solved that by introducing staggered parking bays. Honestly I'd never thought of it as a problem or heard anyone else complain about it.
I mostly get around on foot and really can't reconcile the reality I saw every day with the tales of woe I read about the traffic horror on Shakespeare, Railton and the rest of the new LTN.
Maybe my expectations are just different.

I have to say I regularly walked up Shakespeare Road before the LTN scheme and can't ever recall seeing much traffic at all. That said, maybe it was ultra-congested at other times when I wasn't walking through.

 

[co-op]

The traffic that used Shakespeare Road and Railton Road as an overflow to avoid Coldharbour Lane was on one hand horrendous enough to justify closing both roads, but on the other hand insignificant enough to not play any part in the current congestion when it's forced back onto Coldharbour?

I don't think anyone on here has argued that there's literally no connection between LTNs and higher congestion on alternative routes, what I've argued is that this always happens every time there's any capacity reduction and then the traffic settles down to a new normal which is broadly the same as the old normal. There have been multiple capacity reductions over recent decades;
width restrictions to stop lorries, e.g.
road closures,
bus lanes,
bicycle lanes,
cars getting much larger leading to 4 lane roads being remarked as 2 lanes.

Each led to greater congestion in the short term but in the end they got us to where we were before LTNs were introduced. Now it's LTNs in the firing line.

But if you think capacity reductions "cause" congestion, then you are kind of committed to the idea that capacity increases will do the reverse and make the traffic run smoothly. So where are the new roads going to go? Or how else are you going to find extra capacity?

And do you think that any changes you make one way or the other will be a permanent fix, or is it much more likely that when you increase capacity you increase demand and when you reduce capacity you reduce demand.

 

[co-op]

I have to say I regularly walked up Shakespeare Road before the LTN scheme and can't ever recall seeing much traffic at all. That said, maybe it was ultra-congested at other times when I wasn't walking through.

Shakespeare Rd used to have a real problem with speeding rat runners in the 80s and 90s, I hardly ever use it now (partly as a result?) so I don't know what it's like now.

 

[editor]

Shakespeare Rd used to have a real problem with speeding rat runners in the 80s and 90s, I hardly ever use it now (partly as a result?) so I don't know what it's like now.

I can only comment from my own experiences, where I often walked up during the evening 'rush hour' and I'd describe the traffic as very light.

 

[editor]

I hadn't noticed that the OneLambeth lot had managed to get a petition on Lambeth's site

ePetition - Immediate Removal and Cessation of Lambeth’s Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN) Schemes | Lambeth Council

moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk

 

[Brian Taylor]

To be fair, including you.

To be fair, how would I have known I had to?

 

[thebackrow]

Shakespeare Rd used to have a real problem with speeding rat runners in the 80s and 90s, I hardly ever use it now (partly as a result?) so I don't know what it's like now.

I think the traffic counts that are on the consultation site say it was over 3.5k vehicles each day which is definitely not quiet but part of the issue with rat runners is they also tend to drive aggressively so it definitely wasn't a pleasant place to cycle. And of course before the "I ride it and I think its' fine" response comes back by definition you're not the target market - it's about enabling the majority who haven't cycled up to now because of fear of traffic. Anecdotally I'm seeing far more, and far more varied and 'non-cyclist' people on bikes around the Railton neighbourhood since the changes.

 

[thebackrow]

I can only comment from my own experiences, where I often walked up during the evening 'rush hour' and I'd describe the traffic as very light.

Again, it's not a main road so you'd hope not but what's comfortable for an adult is somewhat less for children who might now be able to walk to school unaccompanied with far fewer speeding drivers on Railton and Shakespeare than there were previously.

 

[editor]

Again, it's not a main road so you'd hope not but what's comfortable for an adult is somewhat less for children who might now be able to walk to school unaccompanied with far fewer speeding drivers on Railton and Shakespeare than there were previously.

But not so good news if they live on Coldharbour Lane and have to breathe in shitloads more fumes and navigate congested traffic.

 

[Brian Taylor]

But not so good news if they live on Coldharbour Lane and have to breathe in shitloads more fumes and navigate congested traffic.

And this is the main problem i have with the LTN (apart from simply not being asked).
How is it fair and reasonable to move traffic and pollution from an area with already lower traffic and pollution into an area which is already heavily congested and polluted?

 

[Aristocrat]

I know someone who works for Lambeth Council. I spoke to them and asked them what they thought. They said they didn't think the CHL traffic was down to the LTN.

[obviously I have not done this yet but I know a few people with council connections. Nothing to do with transport monitoring but anecdote is fine isn't it?]

Some more footage from Tooting, recently freed from the dreadful tyranny of LTNs.



And a slightly more elegaic take:

 

[Gramsci]

This isn’t true and has been pointed out a number of times.

As I said the Council started on consultation for Brixton Liveable neighbourhood. This stopped due to health crisis.

Council then used powers that is has during pandemic to introduce emergency alterations to roads

Any permanent changes to road layouts after this temporary emergency response are subject to statutory consultation with the local community.

From:

Railton LTN

Read the latest project update on Railton Neighbourhood.

rtstreets.commonplace.is

So the statutory consultation is going to be later.

So the LTNs come under a range of emergency changes to roads. Which are temporary.

 

[Gramsci]

If I was One Lambeth I'd be asking what the timeframe is for the statutory consultation.

 

[co-op]

To be fair, how would I have known I had to?

To be fair you posed the question.

 

[teuchter]

And this is the main problem i have with the LTN (apart from simply not being asked).
How is it fair and reasonable to move traffic and pollution from an area with already lower traffic and pollution into an area which is already heavily congested and polluted?

You don't just simply "move" it.
Some of it will "move" in the short term yes.
The justification is that (a) in the medium-long term a significant portion of that which has been "moved" will disappear, because certain journeys no longer get made, and (b) that in the longer term, the LTNs are a necessary part of an overall strategy to reduce traffic and pollution everywhere.

Therefore, say 3 or 5 years from now, even those heavily trafficked roads will experience less pollution that they otherwise would have done. The alternative is to do nothing, and nothing can improve anywhere, including nothing improving on the main roads.

 

[editor]

 

[Not a Vet]

I hadn't noticed that the OneLambeth lot had managed to get a petition on Lambeth's site

ePetition - Immediate Removal and Cessation of Lambeth’s Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN) Schemes | Lambeth Council

moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk

Well unless it’s a different Brian Taylor, a person with the same name started a thread on Nextdoor about said survey but seems to be rather quiet on the subject on here. Apologies Brian Taylor, new member if it’s someone different.
After that controversy about links earlier, hopefully this doesn’t fall foul of any t&cs

 

[Brian Taylor]

To be fair you posed the question.

Think I might have got confused here. I originally meant that the council didn't bother to ask or inform any of us what it was planning or ask what we thought. Hence why i didn't see how i could have known to tell them.
Apologies for being unclear.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Well unless it’s a different Brian Taylor, a person with the same name started a thread on Nextdoor about said survey but seems to be rather quiet on the subject on here. Apologies Brian Taylor, new member if it’s someone different.
After that controversy about links earlier, hopefully this doesn’t fall foul of any t&cs

Same name same person. Not quiet about it just assume as this is a rather less general forum that anyone who wanted to read it or sign would already have done so.

 

[co-op]

Think I might have got confused here. I originally meant that the council didn't bother to ask or inform any of us what it was planning or ask what we thought. Hence why i didn't see how i could have known to tell them.
Apologies for being unclear.

No problem, I was starting to think one or both of us had picked up the wrong end of the stick.

 

[co-op]

If those figures about the numbers of women and people with cargo and/or children on bikes are good, then that's pretty good evidence that people who are normally intimidated off the roads by cars are now starting to cycle.